floridaCFII

That's my take on it, but I'd like to see if rickair can find a FAR reference that says otherwise, because he's usually pretty good at this stuff.

Correct.

This one is incorrect. You can log PIC and conditions, but you can't log landings unless you personally perform them (because the regs require that the landings be logged by the sole manipulator of the controls). So if you demo a landing for a student, then log it... but if the student is manipulating the controls at all, then you don't log it.

hotelmode

I seem to remember hearing somewhere that if you are the instructor, and the student is flying the approach, if you are in IMC until the final approach fix, you can log the approach. Does that ring a bell for anybody? I have never seen a regulation that says that, just something I heard.

Ewfflyer

Here's my interpretation:

You are IMC, and you are PIC/CFI. You are required to be in that airplane to be operating in those conditions, regardless if you are teaching or flying on your own.

You are Directly responsible for the safety of this flight. You are also supposed to be the one who's name is on the IFR flight-plan right?

So with that said, yes I log all "act-inst" approaches as my own, because even if the student is "flying," I'm still right there ready to over-ride the controls if/when they mess something up. All it takes is one student going 45-degree's right of course, diving, and a 30 degree-bank at minimums, and you learn not to relax with someone you thought you could trust!!!!(I was eye's-out looking for the airport, thought the student could maintain a VOR-A course, yikes!)

esa17

If I'm with a student inside the FAF I'm doing just as much work as they are. I log them ONLY if in IMC and inside the FAF. I do not log landings.

250 or point 65

Not entirely correct. The CFI can log PIC because they are a CFI giving dual. Doesn't matter if you are flying through rain, sunshine, smoke, or locust's. If I am giving dual, I'm logging PIC.

However, I still don't feel comfortable about logging approaches in IMC...everyone keeps saying you can, but we need proof people!

Otto123

Ok...this is a great question as I am onto my training as CFI/I, so the logging of time, etc. is always welcome knowledge.

It seems to me that if you are going up in VMC to shoot approaches, then the CFII is along for the ride as a safety pilot and therefore needs to agree with the PIC (who in this case is the PPL rated Instrument student) on how it is to be logged per CFR 61.51(e)(1)(ii) or CFR 61.51(f)(2).

Change that scenario to going up in IMC and shooting approaches with that same Instrument student and it seems as though the CFI/I now becomes the PIC of the flight regardless as to having the controls in hand or not given they are the final authority of the flight, that is per CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i).

CFR 61.57 states that a person must be the SOLE manipulator of the controls to log that time pertaining to the flight. So as the CFI/I, if you are not landing the aircraft, then you are not supposed to log that landing.

That's my dissertation of the regulations for what it's worth.

250 or point 65

Guys guys guys! The question of whether a CFI can log approaches is a good one, but

THERE IS NO GRAY AREA WHEN IT COMES TO A CFI LOGGING PIC!!! Read the regs!

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.


The instructor does not log PIC because

• the student and him agreed on it
• the flight is flown in clouds
• the instructor is acting as safety pilot
• there is a hamster in the back seat

The instructor logs PIC because HE IS THE INSTRUCTOR!

Logging PIC has almost nothing to do with who touches the controls.

robthree

250, well said.

For clarity 250 cited 61.51, Pilot Logbooks, which states further:

(g) Logging instrument flight time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.


Paragraph (2) is the one customarily interpreted to mean that a CFII may log approaches conducted in actual conditions, as clearly the approaches could not happen at all without his presence. Paragraph (3) refers to logging instrument time, however §61.57(c) (1) has no hour requirement, only (i)6 approaches, (ii)holding procedures, (iii)intercepting and tracking courses.

I must therefore conclude that "instrument time" also means "instrument approaches", as well as holding and intercepting & tracking courses.


In summary, if you do it in the clouds, log it.

Ja189

Bunch of pilots trying to interpret the legal language, SCARY!! Maybe we should pull some case law and determine the answer, if not available maybe write AOPA or the local FSDO and ask for an interpretation of the rule. Further, I have many friends flying for the airlines who have logged the approaches and nothing was ever said to them!

250 or point 65

yes, exactly what i was trying to get across...only worded much better.

THAT'S HOW YOU DEBATE! YEA!