Agreed. I teach at a school that offers only Part 41 primary training. The average student flight time is 60 hours to get a PPL ticket. This is the exact same number as for Part 61 schools, plus or minus 5 hours.

The Part 141 curriculum has more structure and less freedom for either student or instructor. If the instructor is not happy with the student's flying he or she is going to repeat a lesson in question which produces higher flight times. Part 141 total time gets pushed up to 60 hours in most cases, even though the lessons could be finished in 35 hours of training theoretically. Occasionally a student comes along that can ace the program, yes, but I tell you most do not and these are smart, trainable people.

Ryan's point about Part 61 offering more chances for students to seek individualized training is true to my experience. Those who are in Part 61 programs tend to go for tailwheel/ seaplane/ aerobatic/ glider / helocopter experience in addition to meeting FAA mins for commercial flight times. Those who opt for RJ sim time usually get only that- RJ flying is a specialized type of flying that is high, fast, structured, and tends to avoid pilot discretion. While RJ pilots tend to be good pilots because they fly so much, they are not very good at seat-of-the-pants aeronautical thinking because they expect to be either told what to do or have a checklist onhand to tell them what to do. They are also somewhat blinded by the perception they are the best pilots since they fly the most expensive airplanes. I respect the high level of responsibility they undertake to cary so many paying passengers, but I question the roundness of someone who does nothing but RJ flying and came out of a Part 141 airline program aimed at getting them a job as an FO on an airliner.

Case in point- I was asked to drop a tow line for a glider at a precise point on a grass strip next to a paved runway, then land on the same runway in the remaining pavement, then get off and clear the way so an airshow could continue without waiting for a go around. I was to then tow a glider to altitude and get away from the aerobatic zone. I made all this happen with no prior practice not even knowing about it before the day of the show. This kind of decision making is only possible when you have flown a variety of aircraft in a variety of environments. It was the kind of thing I do all the time, no big deal to me. An fresh RJ pilot would have no idea how to do this and I fear for his life if he thought he did.

If you want to go to the airlines, then it is ok to select a program targeting that. If you want to be the best pilot possible then you will have to learn more than just flying a one highly systemized airplane in a highly structured environment. Those guys are good at what they do, don't get me wrong; it's the ability to adapt that is probably lacking there.

 

Check out the Appendix regarding each certificate / rating in part 141.

Private = 35hrs training course
instrument = 35hr training course
commercial = 120 hr training course

total = 190 hrs.

if it's a FITS training school then that may be different. I read up on FITS a while back, but it's been too long to remember details. All I remember about FITS is that it pertains to schools using TAA aircraft and it's more scenario based.

Then again I suppose the controlling FSDO could approve a training course using fewer hours. I'd be interested to know how they were able to do that if that's in fact true.

 

Not all 141 programs are geared toward airlines. The school I work for has nothing to do with RJ training. 141 curriculum is designed to incorporate more quality control and a structured path toward getting your certificates and ratings. 141 curriculum is approved by the FAA and allows a student the chance to earn your certificates in less time than that required for part 61 training depending on the approved syllabus. We teach all the same stuff required by part 61 but are more tightly regulated than part 61. 141 schools are required to maintain an 80 percent pass rate in order to keep their certificate current and allow them to continue advertising as an FAA approved flight program.

Part 61 schools / instructors can pretty much do whatever syllabus they want without the oversight of an FAA inspector so long as you meet the minimum requirements to get that certificate. As mentioned before this does offer more freedom to branch out and do different things whereas there is very little wiggle room in a 141 program. This isn't to say though that you can't go out and get a tailwheel endorsement outside of a 141 course. That tailwheel time you get can go in your logbook. It just won't count towards any of your 141 training if you're already enrolled in a 141 course. The same goes for any extracurricular flying you do outside of being enrolled in a 141 course.

Another drawback to 141 training, is if you already have a bunch of hours training from a part 61 operation, then the 141 can only accept a maximum of 25 percent of the total hours required by their syllabus for that approved course. Ex: you have 50 hrs of training from your part 61 instructor towards a private cert. and you want to finish it up at a 141 school. The 141 school can only accept a maximum of 12.5 hrs towards the completion of their approved course. You might as well finish the certificate under 61 and then start your instrument with the 141 school.

If you moved from one 141 school to another, then you have to get a copy of your records from the old 141 flight school and present it to the new one. The new one can only accept a maximum of 50 percent of the hours required by their approved training course outline.

I'm sure there are more advantages and disadvantages to 141 schools than what i've listed here. This is all I could think of off the top of my head late on a Sunday night.

I'm not trying to advocate one over the other. In the end the pieces of plastic you get are the same. Go to a 141 school and get a discovery flight and a tour of the school. Ask to sit through and observe a ground school session. Do the same with the 61 school. Do what ever works best for you, financially and academically.

 

I personally think that 61 schools would be the way to go, as long as you can stay motivated and keep progressing. I did all of my training at a 61 but now I instruct at a 141. I try to give my students the same fun experiences that I had, but sometimes it's hard to do that because of some of the syllabus lessons. Some 141 school instructors that I've talked with have even gotten some heat from management for not passing off their students in the bare min 35 hours, so that could lead to some holes in your training.

 

I think 141 is unnecessarily restrictive. As a 61 CFI, I don't like being told what to do, and when. I'd like the freedom to tailor the instruction to the individual. 141 says I can't do that.

 

You still can, just within the boundaries of the syllabus. You can't however skip from stage to stage. So, if you're lacking some cross-country time and want to "tailor" your students training to milk the student for some cross-country, then no you can't do that 141. (not implying that you, I, or anyone else milks students. used more or less for effectiveness) Likewise if a student wanted to get out of the practice area and do maneuvers as they fly cross-country to a hamburger joint 50+ miles away, you could do that part 61. Not so much 141 unless that destination airport is part of the lesson plan.

keep in mind the original poster is a student not a cfi. And yes de727 is correct in that 61 instructors have a LOT more freedom than 141. But again, it depends on the school, their instructors, and ultimately you as a student. Research both and find a school that suits you. Every school is different. Don't let one bad 141 or 61 school spoil your perception of either.

As a CFI though, 141 is way to go as far as instructing. In my experience, students seek out the school and students fall in the cfi's lap. part 61 may not be so easy unless you work in a high density area such as Houston, etc. But as I mentioned every school is different regardless of 61/141

 

At the 141 university in instructed at, we experimented with a new "learner-centric" syllabus. Basically, you had modules that incorporated a number of different tasks, but the individual lesson plans were blank. The CFI was free to tailor each lesson to a particular student's needs, but the syllabus guided the instruction in the order the school and FAA wanted training to be completed. Although it took some learning and work to write lesson plans for each student, the freedom and guidance was worth it.

 

The F.I.T.S syllabus, removes all hour requirements. It is completely proficiency based. We have the TAA in Diamond DA-40s with G1000s.

 

I have experience in both as a student and instructor. It doesn't matter. Whatever you choose, make the most important decision: choose a good instructor. The number of the FAR's will not matter as much as your instructor choice. Don't be afraid to "fire" him and get another. It's your money.

 

I've taught under and trained under part 61 and 141. I've seen good and bad pilots come out of both, its not the school that makes a big difference its how hard you work at it. You might get some little bonuses from training 141 but it will also most likely cost more.