250 or point 65

and ive got 3 words for that....Radar Contact Lost. Are you gonna rely on BBF airport to have radar coverage? Not saying that you have to hold, but a hold as a procedure turn is not outside the realm of realistic possibilities.

As instructors, we need to constantly be training for the absolute worst case scenario. This not only makes a real emergency much more manageable, but also teaches decision making skills. Think Sully could do a PP hold if it were necessary...probably.

Ewfflyer

#1 on Radar Contact Lost: Are you serious? In that event, I really doubt controllers are going to "play" that game. Then all you do is call for an emergency. If you do this in the Sim, you are going beyound what is reasonable. I just don't see this being realistic unless you were already in an area of lacking coverage. But in this same situation, the controllers would give notice of this, and I would imagine try to see if A. you're comfortable w/o their help, or B. Vector and/or climb you so they can get you where they will see you to XXX airport.

#2 on Worst Case Scenarios: I agree to an extent. I've never seen an airplane that's lost all gyro's(air driven) and it's electrical, plus down to one com/nav. So there is a limit on what should be failed at times too IMO. It's self-control on the instructors part. Now if our Ace student gets cocky, or is really just that good and needs a good challenge, then it's time to add things on, but just loading someone up out of the blue doesn't teach them much if they haven't learned the basic's already.

#3 If Sully had to hold PP in an Airbus, I'd feel sorry for him, because it'd be his 2nd worst day in flying! Transition him back to a 6-pack airplane, I don't know, is he current in them, or has he only flown glass in the last umpteen years? I'm sure at one time he was very current in that regard

jedinein

First, I completely agree that there is a limit and it is up to the instructor to judge what training the student needs to accomplish the training objective. With that said, a partial panel hold can be part of an instrument approach procedure. Even if 999 out of 1000 times that you could possibly have an instrument failure you will be in RADAR and radio contact, that one time when you're not, you need to be able to deal with it.

There is precedent for being able to fly without ATC assistance. Our entire instrument system was developed from, and continues to have procedures for, a non-RADAR environment. ZLA has lost RADAR numerous times and radio a few times. SoCal TRACON has lost RADAR and radio multiple times. ZOA and ZFW are not immune. Whatever is causing the failure can be causing multiple failures. A short-circuit or fire can cause a progressive failure. So can a engine that is spewing fuel out of a major leak.

Now, myself, a few clients, and two instructor friends have experienced instrument failures while IMC. Four times, ATC RADAR was unavailable, twice, RADAR and Radio was not available, the controller stating "call me when you land to cancel IFR". I've been in IMC and lost pretty much everything except the radio (two FAA ramp checks followed that flight, the first as the Inspector happened to be on final when I came in, the second 'cause he called his boss). Hopefully you will be one of the majority of pilots that never experiences a serious in-flight failure. We train so that if you are one of the "chosen few" that will be put to the test, you will survive.

NoyGonnaDoIt

I don't understand.

I would still not hold unnecessarily for delay purposes, but radar coverage is not everywhere and you might need to do a PT (or HILPT) to reverse course and get down. Emergency authority? There's a good chance that if you do a home grown self vector for an approach outside radar coverage in some parts of the US you will end up with a far greater emergency than a vacuum failure.

Did I misunderstand the comment?

Brendan

Thanks for the help everybody. I'll let you know how it goes next week.

Ewfflyer: I haven't heard anything about the fly-in for this year, but I'll try to find out. It sure is nice out right now though!

250 or point 65

I don't think I'm understanding your argument. It seems like you think that the individual ATC decides when they have radar coverage and not. If he can't see you, he can't see you. Also, like someone else said, the whole point of instrument training is to be able to do EVERYTHING without ATC's help. We don't train radio out and full procedure approaches for nothing.

Also, there are ENDLESS aircraft incidents that have not been trained for. Have you ever practiced ditching? Have you practiced what happens when the top of your 737 rips off? Have you practiced when your 3rd engine blows up and severs all control to all 3 axis'? As instructors, we cannot start to imagine all the things that could possibly go wrong, however, we can train students in nearly improbable scenarios because it teaches decision making skills that will transfer to all emergency situations.

Ewfflyer

I think we're all misunderstanding each other here. When your response to Rickair's "unable" was "radar contact lost" I was assuming it in the regards that the instructor in this case is basically leaving the student hung out to dry.

I'm not saying you shouldn't give them the worst case scenario eventually, my points are you have to build someone up to these experiences, because w/o a base knowledge and partial panel skills. There are always the prodigy students(which I definately enjoy) who you can push very hard and really see what they are capable, but this is always up to the discretion of the instructor(whom we're trying to help out in this situation)