Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-14-2009, 12:53 PM   #1  
New Hire
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 3
Default Part 141 vs 61

I am looking at starting from scratch for flight training. I am curious if it is less expensive to do the 141 course and use my VA benefits or do the 61 course and not use the benefit. I am also looking for some ideas about schools that use multi engines as a major part of the course of instruction. Thanks for any input.
Want2learn is offline  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:02 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Gajre539's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: EMB-170 FO
Posts: 383
Default

Check out Fly Aviator and http://www.atpflightschool.com/va/index.html. Then compare differences in training costs in Part 61. Since you get VA benefits, I suggest you use them instead of racking up loans.
Gajre539 is offline  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:07 PM   #3  
Line Holder
 
heckler45's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 32
Default

Questions you should ask yourself; Where do you live? Do you want to relocate, etc. When looking around at schools the first thing I would do is to verify that they are indeed a VA approved school and then double check on the VA web-site to validate their claims. One thing you will learn when chosing this profession is you always need to CYA and don't depend on anyone.

As I am sure you are aware, your VA benefits will only kick in after completing your private pilots license. It is only 60% of the total cost for each additional rating or license. Also bear in mind that you more than likely will be dishing out the money up front. Good news is that most schools allow you to pay as you go or you can give them a lump sum. I guess it's all in how you obtain your financing for initial expenses.

Do this, if you have the time go visit the schools you are interested in. Be sure to make it a point to speak with their VA representative. They should be able to give you a break down of exactly how much each course runs and how much exactly you will get back from VA. If their VA rep seems to be clueless then drop that school from the list of potentials.

I know how bad the flying bug can bite and how anxious a person can be to get started earning their wings. I went the 141 route using VA only to finish at a time when the industry took a nose dive. I would offer the advice of using your VA benefits to go to college and fly part time at a local FBO. Get you a degree that will allow you to obtain a decent paying job. But that's my $0.02 worth!
heckler45 is offline  
Old 03-14-2009, 11:23 PM   #4  
Line Holder
 
Rustee's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 25
Default

Specifically regarding the Part 61 vs. 141 question...

I've found that doing your Private under 61 is better than than 141. This means you don't necessarily have to go to a larger flight school and pay their premium prices, and rather find something more affordable per hour. If I'm not mistaken, the 141 minimums for a Private certificate are 35, as compared to 61 minimums of only 40. With the average closer to 70 (or more, depending on where you train), there is little 141 advantage.

Now for your Instrument rating, a 141 course is valuable because it eliminates the 50 hours cross country that would be required if you do it under 61. Also, generally Instrument training with a 141 syllabus is very effective (more so than with a Private certificate, where the instructor has more flexibility), which can be a plus. Doing your Commercial 141 brings the total time requirement down to 190 (as opposed to 250 under 61), however, up to 50 hours of Flight Training Device time can be used towards the 250 total time requirement under 61. So, all things considered, if you can get cheaper per-hour rates flying somewhere 61, for your Commercial that may be your best bet.

As far as VA benefits, well, factor that into your decision making. If it's true that they only apply after your Private, than starting 61 and then doing your Instrument and Commercial 141 would make the most sense.
Rustee is offline  
Old 03-15-2009, 08:25 AM   #5  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 26,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustee View Post
Specifically regarding the Part 61 vs. 141 question...

I've found that doing your Private under 61 is better than than 141. This means you don't necessarily have to go to a larger flight school and pay their premium prices, and rather find something more affordable per hour. If I'm not mistaken, the 141 minimums for a Private certificate are 35, as compared to 61 minimums of only 40. With the average closer to 70 (or more, depending on where you train), there is little 141 advantage.

Now for your Instrument rating, a 141 course is valuable because it eliminates the 50 hours cross country that would be required if you do it under 61. Also, generally Instrument training with a 141 syllabus is very effective (more so than with a Private certificate, where the instructor has more flexibility), which can be a plus. Doing your Commercial 141 brings the total time requirement down to 190 (as opposed to 250 under 61), however, up to 50 hours of Flight Training Device time can be used towards the 250 total time requirement under 61. So, all things considered, if you can get cheaper per-hour rates flying somewhere 61, for your Commercial that may be your best bet.

As far as VA benefits, well, factor that into your decision making. If it's true that they only apply after your Private, than starting 61 and then doing your Instrument and Commercial 141 would make the most sense.
The VA will never pay for a PPL. They will not pay for an instrument rating either unless it is conducted while concurrently enrolled in a 141 CPL course. They don't want to pay for PPL and IR for hobby fliers.

I have trained and instructed under 61 and 141, and have used and administered VA bennies under 141.

Generally 141 schools charge more, so even if you finish with reduced hours you still end up paying close to the same amount. Unfortunately your job prospects as a pilot depend not on the amount of money you saved in school, but on your flying experience as measured by total flight time in airplanes (not simulators). If I was going to pay the same amount or close to it, I would take 61 and get more flight time.

VA bennies will reduce the amount you pay for 141 but at some pricey schools you can still pay as much out of pocket as you would have for 61 training. You really want to compare the price of:

1) All your ratings part 61 (PPL/IR/CPL/CFI/CFII/MEI) vs.

2) The cost of a 61 PPL folllowed by IR/CPL/CFI/CFII/MEI under 141 with VA.

But there is another critical consideration ...

Do you have a four-year college degree? Your aviation career will doomed without one, so do not even consider blowing your VA on flight training until you get that degree. There are very few aviation jobs and no career progression right now, so this would be a good time to hunker down and spend a few years in academia...
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 03-15-2009, 09:39 AM   #6  
Line Holder
 
ATLCFI's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 39
Default Shop Around

Some schools charge the same for 61 and 141. So shop around and you'll find programs that are a bargain with VA benefits.

Like previously stated you have to watch how much benefits you have if you still need to finish a college degree. The VA won't allow you to use benefits for both at the same time.
ATLCFI is offline  
Old 03-16-2009, 05:45 PM   #7  
New Hire
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 3
Default Thanks for the info.

I currently have a BA degree in Criminal Justice and have been a police officer for 17 years. I am 37 years old and am looking for something else to do when I am eligible for retirement in 4 years. Don't think I want to work the streets until I am 55 or older. Hoping this could be another option. When you are talking about degrees does it have to be in aviation or would my current degree sufice? I am also waiting on info about the new Post 9/11 VA benefits. They had put out some info about it applying to flight instruction if it was provided by a IHL. Not sure what they will pay for. At my age would anyone advise commercial job or try for the corporate world? Thanks again for the info and any other suggestions would be much apprecieated.
Want2learn is offline  
Old 03-16-2009, 06:17 PM   #8  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 26,747
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Want2learn View Post
I currently have a BA degree in Criminal Justice and have been a police officer for 17 years. I am 37 years old and am looking for something else to do when I am eligible for retirement in 4 years. Don't think I want to work the streets until I am 55 or older. Hoping this could be another option. When you are talking about degrees does it have to be in aviation or would my current degree sufice? I am also waiting on info about the new Post 9/11 VA benefits. They had put out some info about it applying to flight instruction if it was provided by a IHL. Not sure what they will pay for. At my age would anyone advise commercial job or try for the corporate world? Thanks again for the info and any other suggestions would be much apprecieated.
Any four-year degree works. there are many ex-cops in aviation. Try to get your ratings and work as a CFI before you retire. If you're looking at airlines, you don't want to wast any seniority opportunities at your age. Ideally, try to meet hiring mins the day you retire.

Corporate or regional airlines would probably both work for you. Corporate is all about networking, so spending time at your local airport will help. Actually airlines are all about who you know too, except that regionals will hire all-comers during boom cycles.

The more involved you get in GA, the more you will learn about career options. Get your PPL asap (if you don't already have it) and some fun flying. The VA will not pay for PPL anyway.

Post 9/11 MGIB is complicated...I'm not even clear on the bennies work for flight training, but I do believe that it is more restrictive than in the past. Instead of using a 141 school at your local airport, you might actually have to attend an aviation degree at a university which does flight training. There may also be some provision for grandfathering the old rules if you were eligible for the old bill...I would look into that, it might allow you to train at a small local school anyway.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 03-17-2009, 05:49 PM   #9  
Line Holder
 
heckler45's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 32
Default

A friend of mine used his post 9/11 MGIB while we were at Delta Connection Academy. Want2learn I was a Deputy for eight years after being active Army for seven and Reserves for the last nine. I am currently 35. Rickair is right, jump on getting that ppl now to build some hours and have fun. Perhaps by the time you retire this whole economy will be on the upswing along with the airlines and you will be in a good position to choose which path you want to take.
heckler45 is offline  
Old 03-19-2009, 03:32 PM   #10  
New Hire
Thread Starter
 
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 3
Default

I checked prices for a local 141 program and it was a little less expensive than Ariben or ATP but most of the hours are single engine, only about 35 are multi. Would I be better going with something like ATP or Ari due to the amount of multi time they are offering? Thanks for all the assistance.
Want2learn is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Doing Instrument Rating part 61 PearlPilot Flight Schools and Training 3 02-19-2009 10:35 PM
Part 141 Commercial requirments/cost sellener Flight Schools and Training 11 01-20-2009 05:53 PM
How long till I get the money back for part 141? Longbow64 Flight Schools and Training 1 12-03-2008 06:48 PM
part 61 or 141? PearlPilot Flight Schools and Training 22 09-10-2008 02:00 PM
CFI Question for 141 schools FlynPoPo Flight Schools and Training 17 09-01-2008 02:36 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:40 AM.