What IFR time do airlines look at?
06-03-2009 | 07:12 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
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From: E-170
From the FAA Chief Counsel's Office:
Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.
You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach.
Thank you for your letter of January 25, 1999, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) time and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR)
You first ask whether it would be proper under FAR 61.51(g) for a properly qualified SIC to log instrument flight time flown during instrument conditions while serving as the SIC in Part 121 operations on an aircraft that requires two crewmembers. The answer is yes. As a qualified SIC, and as a required crewmember, you are "operating" the aircraft within the meaning of FAR 61.51(g). Therefore, as the SIC operating the aircraft "solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions," you would log that time as SIC flown in instrument conditions. Naturally, the PIC logs the time as PIC flown in instrument conditions.
You then ask if, for the purposes of maintaining instrument currency, an instrument approach on the above flight flown by the PIC can be logged as an instrument approach by the SIC. The answer is no. As the SIC you have not "performed" the approach as contemplated by FAR 61.57(c) because you were not the sole manipulator of the controls during the approach.
06-03-2009 | 07:26 AM
#22
Blue Skies
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From: C208B
In that regard.
At our school we have a "rule" regarding instrument, that if there is IMC conditions between the FAF and the MAP the instructor can also log the approach, even though the PPL rated student is flying.
Your take on this?
At our school we have a "rule" regarding instrument, that if there is IMC conditions between the FAF and the MAP the instructor can also log the approach, even though the PPL rated student is flying.
Your take on this?
06-03-2009 | 07:30 AM
#23
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From: E-170
An authorized instructor can log instrument time but it gets shady about the approach. referring to what twin wasp wrote i would have to say that you cannot log the approach unless your flying it.
06-03-2009 | 07:44 AM
#24
Blue Skies
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From: C208B
Hm. I think it was a DPE who told me this (about the IMC between the FAF and the MAP).
I guess my take on it, is that the student is not legal to fly in those conditions unless you are supervising him on the approach, so you could say in a way that you are "performing" the approach when in actual IMC as you are not acting as a safety pilot anymore, but the legal pilot for operation in IMC conditions?
I guess my take on it, is that the student is not legal to fly in those conditions unless you are supervising him on the approach, so you could say in a way that you are "performing" the approach when in actual IMC as you are not acting as a safety pilot anymore, but the legal pilot for operation in IMC conditions?
06-03-2009 | 07:52 AM
#25
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From: E-170
Hm. I think it was a DPE who told me this (about the IMC between the FAF and the MAP).
I guess my take on it, is that the student is not legal to fly in those conditions unless you are supervising him on the approach, so you could say in a way that you are "performing" the approach when in actual IMC as you are not acting as a safety pilot anymore, but the legal pilot for operation in IMC conditions?
I guess my take on it, is that the student is not legal to fly in those conditions unless you are supervising him on the approach, so you could say in a way that you are "performing" the approach when in actual IMC as you are not acting as a safety pilot anymore, but the legal pilot for operation in IMC conditions?
06-03-2009 | 08:35 AM
#26
Blue Skies
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From: C208B
seems like this have been discussed before.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fl...-approach.html
I see your point in regards to PIC/SIC, but both those pilots are legal to fly in IMC conditions as they are both instrument rated.
A ppl student is not instrument rated, and not allowed to fly in IMC (unless you're with him), I feel this is where the difference lies
edit:
Since you are actively giving instruction - and not acting as a safety pilot anymore, as you are in IMC - you are performing the approach by guiding the student in the same way that the student could perform the approach by telling the autopilot to fly it, and you're doing it in actual instrument conditions per 61.51
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/fl...-approach.html
I see your point in regards to PIC/SIC, but both those pilots are legal to fly in IMC conditions as they are both instrument rated.
A ppl student is not instrument rated, and not allowed to fly in IMC (unless you're with him), I feel this is where the difference lies
edit:
Since you are actively giving instruction - and not acting as a safety pilot anymore, as you are in IMC - you are performing the approach by guiding the student in the same way that the student could perform the approach by telling the autopilot to fly it, and you're doing it in actual instrument conditions per 61.51
Last edited by Photon; 06-03-2009 at 09:15 AM.
06-03-2009 | 11:05 AM
#27
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From: Sr. VP of button pushing
Check the last part in bold.
"This responds to your email message dated April 6, 2008 and addressed to Loretta Alkalay, Regional Counsel for the Eastern Region, in which you ask that we confirm or revise earlier guidance that the Flight Standards Service had posted for a time as a "Q
& A" on the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) website. The guidance, which you provided in your
email, and the pertinent regulations are set forth below:
email, and the pertinent regulations are set forth below:
Q&A #291
QUESTION: Am I correct in understanding that a CFII may log approaches that a student flies when those approaches are conducted in actual instrument conditions?
Is there a reference to this anywhere in the rules?
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51 (g)(2); Yes, a CFII may log approaches that a student flies when those approaches are conducted in actual instrument flight conditions. And this would also permit that instructor who is performing as an authorized instructor to " ... log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions" and this would count for instrument currency requirements under § 61.57(c).
Is there a reference to this anywhere in the rules?
ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51 (g)(2); Yes, a CFII may log approaches that a student flies when those approaches are conducted in actual instrument flight conditions. And this would also permit that instructor who is performing as an authorized instructor to " ... log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions" and this would count for instrument currency requirements under § 61.57(c).
Applicable Regulations
Section 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting
instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
2
Section 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimruns prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft ...,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrrunent privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrrunent privileges sought-
(i) At least six instrrunent approaches; ...
The Chief Counsel's office agrees that the earlier guidance reflects the appropriate interpretation of the regulations. The regulations expressly permit an authorized instructor conducting instrrunent instruction in actual instrument flight conditions to log instrument flight time (61.5 1(g)(2)). The only remaining issue is whether, even if properly logged, the
approaches are considered to have been "performed" by the instructor within the meaning of section 61.57 (c)(l). The FAA views the instructor's oversight responsibility when instructing in actual instrument flight conditions to meet the obligation of 61.57( c)(1) to have performed the approaches."
(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting
instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
2
Section 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimruns prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft ...,
performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrrunent privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrrunent privileges sought-
(i) At least six instrrunent approaches; ...
The Chief Counsel's office agrees that the earlier guidance reflects the appropriate interpretation of the regulations. The regulations expressly permit an authorized instructor conducting instrrunent instruction in actual instrument flight conditions to log instrument flight time (61.5 1(g)(2)). The only remaining issue is whether, even if properly logged, the
approaches are considered to have been "performed" by the instructor within the meaning of section 61.57 (c)(l). The FAA views the instructor's oversight responsibility when instructing in actual instrument flight conditions to meet the obligation of 61.57( c)(1) to have performed the approaches."
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