BFR help (pilot one)
08-02-2010, 10:16 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: CFII
Posts: 139
BFR help (pilot one)
Read my other BFR post for background.......
Two scenerios and then a couple questions..........
BFR pilot 1
Private pilot maybe 150 hours, builds homebuilt experimental stuff, wants flight review in 172 that he did primary training in. Hasnt flown 172 or asel in 3 -4 years. Wants review primarily to practice taxiing homebuilt stuff around uncontrolled field in proximenty to class C, as well as the option to take some local sightseeing flights with family. He was very weak in radio comms, and had a hard time with boldface emergency items. AFter about 3 hours ground...(he was knowledgable of the book stuff) and four hours flight I signed him off. His landing became very smooth and consistant, he had good feel of the aircraft in all modes of flight, and after banging the boldface items and singing them with him untill he was able to go throught them appropriately in flight and i was confident he could put it down in a cornfield. We did basic airwork with stalls and demonstrated competancy. We flew into two class c areas and worked on radio comms and entry requirments. My concern was airspace because of the proximenty of class C to his home field. He was not completely articulate on radio but after practice was conststanyl able to get the "who where and what" of basic radio procedures, and comfortable he wouldnt fly into class c unknowlingly and could call them if he needed help. He had no intention of flying in any class C intentionally. Throught the entire process he had good attitude was happy to go home and review/read (gave him take home open book review like test)
Two scenerios and then a couple questions..........
BFR pilot 1
Private pilot maybe 150 hours, builds homebuilt experimental stuff, wants flight review in 172 that he did primary training in. Hasnt flown 172 or asel in 3 -4 years. Wants review primarily to practice taxiing homebuilt stuff around uncontrolled field in proximenty to class C, as well as the option to take some local sightseeing flights with family. He was very weak in radio comms, and had a hard time with boldface emergency items. AFter about 3 hours ground...(he was knowledgable of the book stuff) and four hours flight I signed him off. His landing became very smooth and consistant, he had good feel of the aircraft in all modes of flight, and after banging the boldface items and singing them with him untill he was able to go throught them appropriately in flight and i was confident he could put it down in a cornfield. We did basic airwork with stalls and demonstrated competancy. We flew into two class c areas and worked on radio comms and entry requirments. My concern was airspace because of the proximenty of class C to his home field. He was not completely articulate on radio but after practice was conststanyl able to get the "who where and what" of basic radio procedures, and comfortable he wouldnt fly into class c unknowlingly and could call them if he needed help. He had no intention of flying in any class C intentionally. Throught the entire process he had good attitude was happy to go home and review/read (gave him take home open book review like test)
08-02-2010, 10:37 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: CFII
Posts: 139
BFR pilot two
BFR pilot two.........
800 hour private/instrument guy flying recreationally and sometimes for business. Longer x/c flights than BFR pilot 1......like 500 nm. hasnt flown in a year.
first hour of flight was inconsitant landings.....took aircraft from him twice. chopped power and started flare about 50 feet of ground and while mainting 50 feet of altitude let airspeed decay to below 60knts by maintaing 50 feet of altitude and pitching up with no displayed intention of adding power, nosing over a bit, or go -around. Felt as if I didnt take the aircraft he simply would have stalled the aircraft at 50 feet above runway.
When we spoke about it, he simply appeared obvlious to it. We did that again next time around as well.
Im not by any means a perfect or even precise pilot in the pattern, but I make an attempt at flying a squared pattern....and keeping it in close enough that I can make a forced landing on the runway.....this pilots downwind drifted towards the runway and away from it, with no particular consistancy. It appeared he either didnt notice....or didnt care. When asked, he did correct for wind, but only that time. ON the ground before flight we went over memory items for engine out....in the air on engine out we fuddled around with mixture uh uh fuel pump uh uh....... never once establishig best glide or turning to a field.
needless to say we are still working on it......
during the ground portion i usually start with a discussion on airspace and ask the pilot what airspace are we standing in? We are at a uncontrolled field with class e starting at 700. His response was class D?
800 hour private/instrument guy flying recreationally and sometimes for business. Longer x/c flights than BFR pilot 1......like 500 nm. hasnt flown in a year.
first hour of flight was inconsitant landings.....took aircraft from him twice. chopped power and started flare about 50 feet of ground and while mainting 50 feet of altitude let airspeed decay to below 60knts by maintaing 50 feet of altitude and pitching up with no displayed intention of adding power, nosing over a bit, or go -around. Felt as if I didnt take the aircraft he simply would have stalled the aircraft at 50 feet above runway.
When we spoke about it, he simply appeared obvlious to it. We did that again next time around as well.
Im not by any means a perfect or even precise pilot in the pattern, but I make an attempt at flying a squared pattern....and keeping it in close enough that I can make a forced landing on the runway.....this pilots downwind drifted towards the runway and away from it, with no particular consistancy. It appeared he either didnt notice....or didnt care. When asked, he did correct for wind, but only that time. ON the ground before flight we went over memory items for engine out....in the air on engine out we fuddled around with mixture uh uh fuel pump uh uh....... never once establishig best glide or turning to a field.
needless to say we are still working on it......
during the ground portion i usually start with a discussion on airspace and ask the pilot what airspace are we standing in? We are at a uncontrolled field with class e starting at 700. His response was class D?
08-02-2010, 10:49 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: CFII
Posts: 139
intially i thought BFR guy one was going to be an issue...hastn flown in 4 years......builds crazy experimentals that hes going to fly into class c and get violated with.......poor atc comms......
The first guy after a couple flights was very consistant ...acknolwedged faults....and improved
The second guy Im not sure with........
not sure if he feels pressured or gets nervous (didnt appear so)
did he just have a bad day?
was the class D response just a brain fart type thing (i know ive had them)
The biggest thing i noticed was he flew the whole time without saying much. It appeared he felt the whole thing was going fine. We debriefed and told him we were going to have to work on landings and emergecny proceudres among other things......I joked and told him he was very good at consistantly flaring and near stalling the aircraft at 50 feet, and if we could pick the runway up 50 feet we would have perfect landings...he seemed to smile/chuckle a bit. Ground portion was rusty.....no idea on the new "taxi to" clearances. Rusty on airspace entry requirments. what do you need to enter class B?.......two way radio communication. Do you have to talk to class D tower to transition airspace?......no
any thoughts/comments/ideas or stories on BFR's for a new CFII and a consistant way to evaluate BFR's.
The first guy after a couple flights was very consistant ...acknolwedged faults....and improved
The second guy Im not sure with........
not sure if he feels pressured or gets nervous (didnt appear so)
did he just have a bad day?
was the class D response just a brain fart type thing (i know ive had them)
The biggest thing i noticed was he flew the whole time without saying much. It appeared he felt the whole thing was going fine. We debriefed and told him we were going to have to work on landings and emergecny proceudres among other things......I joked and told him he was very good at consistantly flaring and near stalling the aircraft at 50 feet, and if we could pick the runway up 50 feet we would have perfect landings...he seemed to smile/chuckle a bit. Ground portion was rusty.....no idea on the new "taxi to" clearances. Rusty on airspace entry requirments. what do you need to enter class B?.......two way radio communication. Do you have to talk to class D tower to transition airspace?......no
any thoughts/comments/ideas or stories on BFR's for a new CFII and a consistant way to evaluate BFR's.
08-02-2010, 01:14 PM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: EMB-170 FO
Posts: 383
Everyone flies different and retains their knowledge differently. I've flown pilots that were rusty and got back to speed in one 2 hour flight while others have taken multiple flights.
Give them study material. I tell all my students to study this before a flight review because it covers a majority of things that every pilot should know - ASA: Guide to the Flight Review
As for the second guy, you may need to work on stalls, slow flight and ground reference maneuvers (rectangular course) before doing any pattern work with him. Landings are something that a non-proficient pilot will always have trouble with. Before you fly tell the pilot what your expectations are. A majority of pilots know that the flight review is not a pass/fail ride so a lot of them are comfortable knowing that if they don't get a sign off in one flight, it'll take multiple flights. Go to my website and click on the download links tab. I created all the procedures and materials for my students so they can spend more time reviewing the information.
In my experience and opinion, there is no consistent way to evaluate a BFR. Every flight review and every student will be different. If you feel comfortable knowing that the student is not going to violate any regulations or cause any damage to people/property and has demonstrated the abilities of being a safe, proficient and competent pilot, you have done what you can as a CFI to give him/her a sign off for a flight review.
Give them study material. I tell all my students to study this before a flight review because it covers a majority of things that every pilot should know - ASA: Guide to the Flight Review
As for the second guy, you may need to work on stalls, slow flight and ground reference maneuvers (rectangular course) before doing any pattern work with him. Landings are something that a non-proficient pilot will always have trouble with. Before you fly tell the pilot what your expectations are. A majority of pilots know that the flight review is not a pass/fail ride so a lot of them are comfortable knowing that if they don't get a sign off in one flight, it'll take multiple flights. Go to my website and click on the download links tab. I created all the procedures and materials for my students so they can spend more time reviewing the information.
In my experience and opinion, there is no consistent way to evaluate a BFR. Every flight review and every student will be different. If you feel comfortable knowing that the student is not going to violate any regulations or cause any damage to people/property and has demonstrated the abilities of being a safe, proficient and competent pilot, you have done what you can as a CFI to give him/her a sign off for a flight review.
08-04-2010, 06:34 AM
#5
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by Gajre539
In my experience and opinion, there is no consistent way to evaluate a BFR. Every flight review and every student will be different. If you feel comfortable knowing that the student is not going to violate any regulations or cause any damage to people/property and has demonstrated the abilities of being a safe, proficient and competent pilot, you have done what you can as a CFI to give him/her a sign off for a flight review.
Overall, my BFR's are somewhat of a PPL ride. I tell folks I don't expect them to meet the criteria, but I'm looking for judgement and average skill that should pass a ride. I expect knowledge of their airframe, and want them to be able to describe anything/everything I ask of it(mainly owners of aircraft). The regs, I just try to update folks on what's happened in the last few years, because most likely this could be the only time they actually pay attention to what's going on out there.
Just remember the option to only sign it off as dual-given is an option, and so far I've been lucky enough I haven't had to do that. One thing for sure though, is if you take that route, you need to be sure to finish out the lesson on what that means, just because your signature is in there, doesn't mean the BFR is complete, and they must recieve additional training etc..etc.. before you can sign it off officially.
My #1 rule is CYA!!!!!
08-04-2010, 09:42 AM
#6
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,408
I'll never forget the bit of advice passed to me by my aviation law teacher at Long Beach City College.
Don't Do BFR's
Why, you ask. You get very little time to evaluate the client and your sign off is good for 2 years. In other words, very little payout to cover a huge liability.
Don't Do BFR's
Why, you ask. You get very little time to evaluate the client and your sign off is good for 2 years. In other words, very little payout to cover a huge liability.
08-08-2010, 06:15 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: CFII
Posts: 139
Good advice, seems like most folks I talk to agree with gajre539. I'm not sure how realistic simply not doing flight reviews is, but completely agree from a rational standpoint......the liability certianly outweighs any benefit....and it is your certificate on the line. Something to think about. Or in my situation, consider holding off on flight reviews, untill I build a bit more experience CFI'ing. Thx for your input.
08-08-2010, 12:25 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: EMB-170 FO
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by sellener
Or in my situation, consider holding off on flight reviews, untill I build a bit more experience CFI'ing.
I would suggest that you build in some limitations for yourself as a CFI. For example, until you have 300-500 hours of dual given, don't give a flight review to a pilot that doesn't hold a commercial pilot certificate and hasn't flown for more than 4 months. Often CFIs need flight reviews too and it would be an easy sign off to give.
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