Hood time
09-06-2010, 04:35 PM
#11
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by chuckyt1
Untrue. In an airline cockpit the FO can only log SIC for anytime as an FO. Whether flying or not.
09-06-2010, 04:43 PM
#12
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by NoyGonnaDoIt
I'm sure alfa was using right seat and left seat generically and not suggesting that the flying pilot always has to be on the left and the safety pilot on the right. That's just where they usually are and is not an FAA requirement (certain aircraft excepted - but they will have information in the limitations section about that). There may be club or insurance rules, though.
Other than that I was saying that the FARs do not care what seat the safety pilot and hood pilot sit in so long as appropriate dual controls (or throwover controls) exist at both seats.
2. Pilot Eligibility:
A. Only a Club member may operate a Club aircraft.
...
B. A Club member shall be Pilot-In-Command ("PIC") of Club aircraft at all times.
1. The PIC shall occupy the left front seat. Only a Club approved instructor may fly or instruct from the right seat and be PIC.
2. Authorization to operate a Club aircraft as PIC from other than the normal solo/PIC position will be considered only for members actively engaged in preparation for an Instructor Rating.
...
4. The PIC status of a member during the scheduled period of use must be indisputable. In this regard, a licensed or unlicensed non-member is not permitted to occupy the left front seat. (The purpose of Pilot Eligibility Rules is to ensure that the responsibility for a Club aircraft as may be determined by FAR would never be with a non-member)
A. Only a Club member may operate a Club aircraft.
...
B. A Club member shall be Pilot-In-Command ("PIC") of Club aircraft at all times.
1. The PIC shall occupy the left front seat. Only a Club approved instructor may fly or instruct from the right seat and be PIC.
2. Authorization to operate a Club aircraft as PIC from other than the normal solo/PIC position will be considered only for members actively engaged in preparation for an Instructor Rating.
...
4. The PIC status of a member during the scheduled period of use must be indisputable. In this regard, a licensed or unlicensed non-member is not permitted to occupy the left front seat. (The purpose of Pilot Eligibility Rules is to ensure that the responsibility for a Club aircraft as may be determined by FAR would never be with a non-member)
09-06-2010, 05:47 PM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: E-175 FO
Posts: 72
Originally Posted by detpilot
Also untrue. There is never a SIC in an aircraft that only requires one pilot- there is 1 PIC, or 2 PIC's. Confusing I know, but the only way a safety pilot can log flight time is if he takes PIC responsibility for looking out for traffic.
No one should have SIC time logged in an aircraft that never requires 2 crew.
No one should have SIC time logged in an aircraft that never requires 2 crew.
This is absolutely incorrect. The operation of simulated instrument flight makes the safety pilot a defacto required flight crewmember, and the FAA is very clear that that pilot is second in command unless otherwise specified. (If an agreement is reached before the flight that the safety pilot has PIC responsibility over the conduct of the flight, both pilots may log PIC, one for acting as PIC, and the other for being the sole manipulator).
Would you guys -please- get this straight? This has been the rule and interpretation for years and years, and yet people keep. spreading. the. same. misinformation.
Read 14 CFR 61.51 (f) 2; see also innumerable letters of interpretation from an FAA that's remarkably consistent on this topic:
Example, et al
As a safety pilot operating under simulated instrument flight, can you:
- Log SIC? Yes, by default.
- Log PIC? Yes, if you agree to assume PIC responsibility for the flight being conducted, otherwise no.
As a pilot operating under simulated instrument flight, can you:
- Log PIC? At all times you are the sole manipulator of the controls.
~Foxy
09-06-2010, 06:05 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Fero's
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by alfadog1
You might have missed my premise "if the aircraft or the conditions under which it is operated requires two pilots". In that case, the pilot flying the airplane always gets PIC (assuming of course he is appropriately rated and has a current medical). The non-flying pilot is SIC if he is not the legal and responsible PIC. No?
I have a 777 type and first class medical.
Edit: In an aircraft that requires two pilots, there really is no sole manipulator.
09-06-2010, 09:29 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: Sr. VP of button pushing
Posts: 2,732
Originally Posted by alfadog1
So if the FO is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which is is rated then he cannot log PIC? Seems in direct contradiction to the rules on logging time though I do not claim to be familiar with Part 121 operations.
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
This has been beat to death so much it's not even funny. You can put whatever you want in your logbook. Per the regs, the two things a logbook does is show you have the time and training for a rating or certificate and show you're current. Since almost all 121 pilots already have their ATP, the first part doesn't matter. I'll bet over half the 121 pilots don't even log their time or if they do, it's just in those little red or blue books to make sure they get paid for their trips.
09-07-2010, 03:45 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 826
Originally Posted by Foxy
Would you guys -please- get this straight? This has been the rule and interpretation for years and years, and yet people keep. spreading. the. same. misinformation.
In your second question you ask "how shall two Private Pilots log their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for simulated instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is acting as safety pilot.
The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this interpretation will be of further assistance to you.
The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this interpretation will be of further assistance to you.
Section 61.51 (f) governs the logging of SIC time and states, in relevant part, that a person may log SIC time only for that flight time during which that person holds the appropriate ratings for aircraft being flown and "more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted." When a pilot is operating an aircraft in simulated instrument flight, 14 C.F.R. § 91.109(b), in relevant part, requires that a safety pilot, who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft, occupy the other control seat. Accordingly, Pilot B may log SIC time for the portion of the flight during which Pilot B acts as safety pilot because Pilot B was a required flight crewmember for that portion of the flight under § 91.1 09(b).
It's no different than the rule that allows the non-flying co-pilot in Part 135 passenger-carrying IFR operations to log SIC in aircraft certified ops single-pilot ops.
Funny, I write a post that says I'll assume the OP understands the logging rules. And then other try to give the OP mis-information about them.
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