Buying a multi with CFI's
09-22-2010, 07:36 AM
#11
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by Cruz5350
Ya but there was some gear and wing spar issues I believe if I recall correctly. Something about trunions (sp?) also some sort of strap on the spar due to exhaust issues? I'm not sure, but just be careful. I think grabbing a 100hr block from Ari Ben is better than this.
I don't know much about the older series, but the P/Q/R are all good as far as I'm concerned. There as some very nice airplanes out there for great prices(relative on what is actually affordable).
09-22-2010, 03:15 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: CFI
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
Well I will say one more thing and then shut up: don't rush into this. Extreme caution is the only way to proceed on a 55-year old beat-up Apache. Think about it in a worst case scenario for one minute- if this thing goes belly up on you, the chances of your being able to revive it are problematic, and may even threaten your airline career aspirations if you are in the same boat as most of us. Pre-buy excitement is your mortal enemy with these airplanes. I would get not one but two mechanics to go over it during pre-buy, and have them do it separately so they do not influence one another. Pay them by the hour and be more than happy to keep them working for a bit. Ask them to tell you why you should buy this airplane, rather than why not to. If all they can come up with is minor stuff then consider the buy and hope they did not miss anything crucial. I see these airplanes junked all the time because of things that do not even seem serious.
So other than the fact that MX and buying a busted up plane being the two main concerns... anybody else with any major shortcomings of going about something like this?
Not a huge fan of the C310 due to the fuel burn... but that thing does go fast. We are looking at runing 60% power or less because better fuel burn and we're interested in building time cheap.... not getting there ASAP
09-30-2010, 01:55 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,201
I do give instruction in an Apache...they have it very well maintained and almost every flight there's something new to fix! Let me tell you don't buy THAT plane for do flight time. Is better to buy some block time in a school or somewhere else, that you don't have to be aware of the MX or ADs or something. If is broken they have to fix it,,,not you or your partners...
At the end it will be cheaper...
At the end it will be cheaper...
10-01-2010, 06:23 AM
#14
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
Originally Posted by f16jetmech
Fabulous points... thank you for that. Will most definitely take my time on this and proceed with caution. I've got a school full of A&P mechanics and an IA that i can entice to take a look at anything I'm interested in.
So other than the fact that MX and buying a busted up plane being the two main concerns... anybody else with any major shortcomings of going about something like this?
Not a huge fan of the C310 due to the fuel burn... but that thing does go fast. We are looking at runing 60% power or less because better fuel burn and we're interested in building time cheap.... not getting there ASAP
So other than the fact that MX and buying a busted up plane being the two main concerns... anybody else with any major shortcomings of going about something like this?
Not a huge fan of the C310 due to the fuel burn... but that thing does go fast. We are looking at runing 60% power or less because better fuel burn and we're interested in building time cheap.... not getting there ASAP
When I flew freight in the R-models, I flew a nightly route, 670nm, with 6 t/o and landings. I did it on an avg of 105-110gal of fuel, and about 5.5hrs block time(not hobbs, start-to-shutdown). That's 19-20gph, with t/o and landings included!!! The C310 will give you more options when weather is around too, just adding my 2-cents!
10-01-2010, 06:47 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,575
When my old flight school lost its Duchess off leaseback, we complained about not having a twin to fly. The owner bought an old Apache for us. We walked out, looked at it, and walked away. No one flew it! He was mad, but that thing was trash. Not even the cheif cfi flew it. I'm sure there's a nice Apache somewhere, but all the ones I've seen are trash. Underpowered too.
10-02-2010, 12:00 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 58
If you are an AOPA member, they have an airplane value application on the website. Just put in the TT the engines have now, then the TT you expect to have when ready to sell it off.
Have you looked at the Beech Dutchess at all? 140kts on 16 to 18 gal/hr (If i remember correctly). The Seneca One would also be a good time builder, and you can usually find these pretty cheap (at least compared to the other Seneca models). Also, FWIW I would stay away from the more advanced Senecas (2 thru 5), there's no need for a turbo-charged time builder - just more parts to replace when the thing breaks down.
An O-360 would cost on average to overhaul about $15k, so you can calculate how much value you would lose in the airplane. WIth TBO of 2000 hrs, it would be costing you about $15 and hour (15,000 x 2 all divided by TBO). So 400 hours of flying would decrease the resale value by about $6000, for a very rough guess.
Have you looked at the Beech Dutchess at all? 140kts on 16 to 18 gal/hr (If i remember correctly). The Seneca One would also be a good time builder, and you can usually find these pretty cheap (at least compared to the other Seneca models). Also, FWIW I would stay away from the more advanced Senecas (2 thru 5), there's no need for a turbo-charged time builder - just more parts to replace when the thing breaks down.
An O-360 would cost on average to overhaul about $15k, so you can calculate how much value you would lose in the airplane. WIth TBO of 2000 hrs, it would be costing you about $15 and hour (15,000 x 2 all divided by TBO). So 400 hours of flying would decrease the resale value by about $6000, for a very rough guess.
10-02-2010, 12:03 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 58
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
Beech Travel Airs are a similar airplane. Since the old T-A's were top of the market segment at the time, many of them are in better shape than comparable Pipers and Cessnas.
10-10-2010, 07:13 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: I was...inverted.
Posts: 69
Everyone here is talking about the the airplane...let's talk about you and your partners. You might want to consider spending a couple of hundred bucks and having a legal type person draw up a partnership agreement. Entry requirements, sharing of the fuel, oil, mx, major issues that might come up, and most of all exit strategy just to name a few. I've seen too many partnerships turn sour because someone didn't pay their share. What if, God forbid, that one of the group looses a medical or worse yet gets t-boned by an 18 wheeler on the way to the airport and earns angel wings in the process? Who pays for his/her share now?
A little up front legal paperwork that is signed, notorized, and binding may go a long way to prevent a major rift later.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and by the way.... sounds like a hell of an idea!! Go for it!!
AOPA would be a great resource, as well as what everyone else has said.
A little up front legal paperwork that is signed, notorized, and binding may go a long way to prevent a major rift later.Just my two cents.
Oh, and by the way.... sounds like a hell of an idea!! Go for it!!
AOPA would be a great resource, as well as what everyone else has said.
05-19-2011, 08:39 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 620
Originally Posted by f16jetmech
So a few of the CFI's from my school and I are seriously considering buying a twin apache or something similar to build some time with. Find something for 50-60k, putting some time on in then reselling it when we're done.
In regards to time building i think its a great idea.... do some long cross countries IFR. What better experience can you get? It's gotta be better than dual multi given all local VFR.
Here's my question. Any negative thoughts on this? We are thinking about putting 300-400 hours on the motors, then reselling. How much in the hole do you go on a plane by adding 300 hours to the motors. (Assuming 500+ left on each motor before MOH).
Your thoughts appreciated
In regards to time building i think its a great idea.... do some long cross countries IFR. What better experience can you get? It's gotta be better than dual multi given all local VFR.
Here's my question. Any negative thoughts on this? We are thinking about putting 300-400 hours on the motors, then reselling. How much in the hole do you go on a plane by adding 300 hours to the motors. (Assuming 500+ left on each motor before MOH).
Your thoughts appreciated
Reason I am asking is if U got one, I want to come & fly some.
I am looking for a twin to rent or buy block or something at a reasonable price, everything in the South Florida area is so expensive.......
Pls let me know if U know something
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