jarhead1

By way of intro I'm a 47 year old VFR, single engine, Private rated pilot, I currently rent a C172 SP, but have flown Piper Cherokee and Arrow (complex is not current) I've been flying for 10 years, typically local flights of 50 - 100 miles, have approx 300 hours of total time, which means that I do not fly may hours a year. When child #1 came I flew every 4-6 weeks approx, when child # 2 came along it went to flying every 6-8 weeks. I keep it safe by flying to same 4-5 local airports, my opinion is safe flying is a function of decision-making as much as knowledge and skill. I stick to good VFR weather, no night flying recently as I do not feel comfortable enough to attempt, but I have approx. 50 hours of night flying. When my frequency improves I will slowly get back into night VFR.

This looks like a CFI forum, but I need some free advice on a recent BFR. I went up with a young guy recently graduated from a top rated school. The flying went Ok the first 1.3 hours, I had not been up for 7 weeks and the rust was there, after landing we did an hour of ground which went well as I'm not a steel trap with all of the FARs. We booked another trip about 10 days later and re did all of the practical maneuvers - stalls, steep turns, emergency landing. Landed with both parties in a good mood, then CFI proceeds to second ground lesson which was not expected - this went less well - asked me to complete a checkout quiz on 172 SP, which I did previously, and finally manual computation of weight and balance. I challenged this part of the ground as not real flying - there are many online tools for weight and balance, and flight planning and others - all pilots use the tools available. I left the ground and went home.

Later I protested to his boss and other CFI that I knew. His boss offered a free ground to close the BFR which I'm doing soon. Question to the group - do Private Pilots get any credit, for lack of a better word, for 10 years of safe consistent flying? Or is the BFR a reset back to the FAA written and oral? Is manual computation of the old standards like flight plan or weight and balance useful or realistic?

Thanks in advance,

NoBeta

I would say that yes knowing how to manually calculate W & B is a good idea. Some of the newer tools that are available for flight planning are great, but what happens when the internet is down, or you have no access to them. I personally like the AOPA flight planner but it should not be a substitute, only a supplement. Same with weight and balance. A few years ago I had a co-worker at an FBO (non-pilot) want to take a ride with me. When I got there he boasted that he had already done the weight and balance and an instructor helped him. I took one look at it and said "this is wrong , I can tell just by looking at it". Then did it manually. He used one of those pre-made excell programs. The arm calculations/numbers were all wrong. It's best to stick to the POH and be cautious of outside resources. They are useful, but the POH is the actual resource. Imagine if you got ramp checked by the FAA and had nothing but supplemental resources for your calculations and none of them came from information derived from the actual POH. On a another note I personally feel that while flight planning and using the POH for information it's still, ( Measure with a micrometer and cut with a chainsaw ).

The instructor may have felt that you needed a little more ground work as far as wanting to do more ground. It's best to catch up with the times, or get left behind.

FlyerJosh

Simply put, it's up to the CFI to determine what is best covered.

In your case, I probably would have spent about 2 hours of ground going over basic regulations stuff (mostly Pt 61/91), aircraft systems, flight planning and emergency procedures. I don't think it's unreasonable to do a refresher on basic W&B (long hand), but I certainly wouldn't "fail" you on it if you hadn't done one in a while. Remember the whole point of a BFR is to REVIEW the items that you probably haven't done much since your last checkride/BFR.

Given your post, the flight probably would have consisted of accuracy landings, stalls, steep turns, and some situational based training on decision making, airmanship, and emergencies.

It sounds to me like there might have been some miscommunication on what was expected of you. If the CFI didn't lay out all of the criteria on what you needed to accomplish to finish a BFR, then he was wrong.... conversely, you should understand that the point of a BFR is two-fold- to ensure that you're a safe pilot that respects the regulations and to review fundamentals and skills that you might not be using.

~J

Walkeraviator

Im with FlyerJosh. Legally you are required to be able to do anything listed in the Private Pilot PTS, which does include weight and balance. However, being that picky is kind of a d*ck move to make. I would make you do a weight and balance however you would on a daily flight and simply see if it was accurate by checking your math the old school way. If you were close I would let it go.

But try to see it from his eyes. If you were to go out on the way home and make a smokin hole... The FAA will ask him what he covered in the BFR. If he missed somethig that could have cost you your life, he could lose his ticket. In addition, your family can litigate. So he may just be practicing excessive CYA procedures.

Just remember that it is his ticket (and maybe his whole future career) on the line. So understand if he gets thourough to protect it.

Cubdriver

Jarhead, take a look at FAA Advisory Circular 61-98A. That is the gospel from the FAA on how BFR's are to be done. There is a wide leeway for approval or rejection of a BFR signoff and selection of instruction material. Many of the lower quality pilots will get multiple BFRs looking for an easy instructor. Take it as a challenge by this guy to read up on W&B and go back and impress him. Should he have continued you for not knowing it? I can see the argument for either side. Bear in mind if a CFI signs someone off and then they go have an incident or accident, does not matter what the cause was, they are on the line and it's not worth it to be sloppy giving signoffs.

Cubdriver

No not really, it is not an insurance rate we are talking about. The only payoff is you are safe all that time.

No it's not that either but any topic is fair game. The FAA knows every pilot does not fly every flight profile, and that's why they allow CFIs to tailor a program to a pilot.

It depends. It's such simple stuff I would be worried about anyone who can't do it. There are electronic E6B's that can do it also. Read up in the Pilot Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (PHAK) FAA-H-8083-25, or better yet Aircraft Weight and Balance Handbook FAA-H-8083-1. These books are cheap and your study should take about an hour.

Ottopilot

I'd show up with a W&B done, performace done, weather printed out, notams, TFR's etc. I hand it to him for review. I don't like to be charged $50/hr to have someone watch me do something I can do at home. I would also show up having studied and reviewed airspace, FAR's, AIM, WX, etc. Most people I give BFR's to are weak in emergency procedures. Scary weak. Review those as best you can. You can't practice them at home, but you can metally prepare for them.

jarhead1

Thank you for the useful responses and good advice. I'll show up for the ground better prepared. I'm hearing mixed reviews on manually computing weight and balance, but consistent agreement that the BFR is the discretion of the CFI. My goal after this BFR, besides flying more often, is to get established at a different airport with more established (read older) CFIs. That way they are not gone in 1-2 years to fly an RJ and I won't be a complete stranger for the next BFR, which I believe was a factor. I appreciate that the CFI is placing their butt on the line, it's a tough job. Thanks again.

Ottopilot

I don't care how anyone calculates anything as long as its right and they fly safe. I use an iPhone app for W&B. The pilot of a 172 should know how much they can put in. Most pilots know most 4 seat aircraft hold 3 people. A good W&B will verify it, but it doesn't have to take long to calculate it.

AbortAbortAbort

Like everyone has said it pretty much comes down to the discretion of the individual. I keep my CFI certificates current and give occasional BFRs to friends and it is mainly a flight of emergency procedures. I know they can fly safely from A to B and back to A again, they've obviously done it for the last two years. I want to know how they act when the fecal matter impacts the spinning blades.

I do think that doing the flight before the ground was a typical low time move by the CFI, he wanted to make sure that if you busted on the ground he had already gotten to fly with you.