ctd57

I told you about this last time you bashed ATP instructors. Instructors hardly ever do XCs like that during training. When planes go from "Washington to Florida" that is two STUDENTS, not an instructor and a student. The cross country flight time builds total time towards your commercial rating. This is done after the students earn their instrument rating. The only long XC that I have done with a student is the long XC that is required in the FARs. XC of more than 250nm with 3 different approaches at 3 different airports. And for the return trip, another required flight by the FARs towards your commerical rating, 300nm VFR at night, 250nm straight line before your first stop. Requires 3 stops at 3 different airports. Like I said before and I'll say it again, know your facts before you make a comment. I have 400 hours of dual given, and about 20 of that is long xc, you can do the math to see how much of my flight time are short hops with alot of approaches. You have no idea how training goes in the first place, so how can you make comments about our proceedures when you don't know the facts.

AirWillie

I didn't say anything about instructors I said students do the long flying. When I talked to an instructor at ATP about this the guy actually said: "we know that you can fly, but can you fly as a team on long flights?" WTF?? Yea I'm sure 85 hour PPls know how to fly.

ctd57

I thought that you meant instructors, sorry about that. Anyway, flying these long cross countries gets you in and out of other airports. It gets you comfortable going to places you aren't used to. I had alot of fun on my cross countries. I think that it is a great time. You shoot enough approaches during your instrument training that you are ready for some cross countries. But if you want to shoot approaches and landings to build up time for your commercial rating, have fun. From what I have heard, AB does the same thing that ATP does inregards to cross countries.

de727ups

"Put your $$$ down and in 90 days walk out with your ratings and start a new career / life as a pilot...I read earlier about a guy that didn't know the difference between a rudder and a yoke before he went to ATP. In 90 days he did and had every rating he'll need to get a job as a CFI"

Personally, I don't see that statement as a good thing...

ctd57

First of all, it isn't like you are paying off the DPEs to pass you. I personally see nothing wrong with a 90 day course. It keeps you focused and committed to your goal. Plus, it isn't like the students who complete the 90 day course are going straight to an airline job. If you want to talk about low experience, look at the guys who come from Mesa's program and go into the right seat at 300 hours. This guys whose post you read, probably came to ATP with no ratings at all and did the pvt program plus the 90 day program. Why is a 757/767 pilot for UPS hanging out in the flight training forum anyway?

de727ups

"First of all, it isn't like you are paying off the DPEs to pass you"

From the ATP website:

"ATP-Approved Examiners

We work with the same Designated Pilot Examiners (DPEs) day in and day out....This relationship ensures a low-stress checkride, for which you will be extremely well prepared."

So....you only take checkrides with DPE's "approved" by ATP so you can have a "low stress checkride". Yeah, right....

"Why is a 757/767 pilot for UPS hanging out in the flight training forum anyway"

Cause I'm a mod here and at JC, cause I'm a CFI, cause I own and fly a Luscombe, a 152, and an Apache. And the number one reason why I hang out at the APC flight training forum...cause I'd hate for anyone to buy off on the big academy Koolaid without hearing the other side of the story. Why are YOU hangin' out here?

"I personally see nothing wrong with a 90 day course"

Thanks for your opinion, I already expressed mine.

"look at the guys who come from Mesa's program and go into the right seat at 300 hours"

Yes, I agree with you that this is a bad thing (I think that was your point).

ctd57

Yes the DPEs are approved by ATP. All that mean is that they have personally met with our VP, and they are personable. ATP has had some bad experiences with DPEs smoking in the plane, and doing some things outside of the PTS. You cannot tell me that other flight schools use different DPEs all the time. Every flight school in the country knows exactly what kind of checkride you are going to get. I was gouged up when I took my PVT checkride at a different flight school. You make is sound like people pass just because they come to ATP. What you don't know is how many people are removed from the program. You opinion is that if you pay, you pass which is nothing further from the truth. I am not saying that ATP is perfect in any means. But your side of the story is wrong. These students do not continue with the program if they cannot pass the checkride. Usually they get 2 shots at it, sometimes 3. ATP is not in the business to make unsafe pilots. The DPEs get no paybacks from ATP, they have no contract, and do not have an obligation to pass the student. The guys who run ATP are pilots themselves. So why would they want people out there flying in their airplanes, who don't know what they are doing? And about you hanging out here, sorry about that, I just have never seen you in the flight training section of the forums, and I am hanging out here because I am a current CFI in my profession. When it comes to 300 hour guys in the right seat, I don't totally disagree with that. Look at the military, guys are put in the seat at less than 300 hours and landing on an aircraft carrier by themselves.

de727ups

"Look at the military, guys are put in the seat at less than 300 hours and landing on an aircraft carrier by themselves"

Heard that argument before. You wanna name a flight academy in the US that is as selective or trains to the same standard as the US military? You wanna tell me ATP meets that standard? You think the military has a timebuilding program where two guys log PIC on the same fight?

"I am hanging out here because I am a current CFI in my profession"

Good for you. I lurk most of the time but when I see something I find simply outrageous, I speak up. Someone posted that in 90 days one can go from no flying experience to teaching the next batch of zero time pilots and that there's nothing wrong with that. I find that belief, simply outrageous...

ctd57

I never said that any flight academy trained to the same standards as the military. No one at ATP goes from no time and 90 days later they are instructing. That is not how the program works. The guys who start the 90 day or 10 month program already have there PVT SE and at least 85 hours, most students have more. Most of the students at my location had around 100-200 hours when they started. When those students finish the 90 day or 10 month program, they have around 240 hours minimum or more. Every CFI has to start somewhere, and what I have been saying is not outrageous. The instructors here go through 6 hours of training with the chief pilot, which is probably something you were not aware of, and our chief pilot isn't a former ATP student. He is a former military pilot with his ATP rating in both helos and fixed wing with over 15,000 hours, so he knows what he is looking for. I am not saying that he is Chuck Yager, but just telling you what the instructors have to prove to a seasoned pilot before we can instruct. So it isn't like ATP takes some shmuck who just finished the program and throws them into the cockpit and tells them to start instructing. And no, the military doesn't have a program where 2 guys log PIC to start building time, but they do have guys who went from zero time to instructor after they are winged. They have around 300 hours and are teaching manuevers alot more difficult than some 300 hour civilian CFI. You act like ATP is the only school in the country who has instructors who have low time. Plenty of my former students are off teaching at other flight schools with the same amount of time that I had when I finished. Obviously you have your opinion, and I have mine and I don't think that either of us will change that. I was just giving you some other facts from someone who has gone through ATP as a student and as an instructor.

de727ups

"Put your $$$ down and in 90 days walk out with your ratings and start a new career / life as a pilot...I read earlier about a guy that didn't know the difference between a rudder and a yoke before he went to ATP. In 90 days he did and had every rating he'll need to get a job as a CFI then regional FO..."

My response was based on the above quote. You seem to be saying that it's incorrect.

You're starting to fill in some of the blanks but I still don't think doing the ATP 90 day program and going right into instructing newbies is a good idea. No seasoning time between ratings or experience outside an academy enviornment.

You're right, you'll never change my mind.