3664shaken

Yup,

1) C-152 total engine failure just after t/o landed in a dirt lot.

2) Once on a PA-28 during a power-off stall in a student was doing the engine quit and stopped then the starter wouldn’t work- we dove it till about 110 kts when it began wind milling and it restarted.

3) Just the other week on short final – throttle cable had broken (in half) so I killed the engine at about 200 agl.

4) In my friends plane we would practice deadstick landings at an old air force base; 10,000 ft long runway in his c-182. Usually kill the engine about 4000 agl and then glide it in.

While there has been a lot of pontificating about how dangerous this maneuver is – it helps build confidence to those whom have actually practiced the ‘real’ thing.

Perhaps if you all spend some time with a competent CFI-G soaring and learning how to effectively manage your energy than your view about powerless flight changes.

Given the right conditions, over a large airfield, good weather, no traffic, it is not a dangerous thing to practice. If it was then we should outlaw soaring!!!!

kaos

you are the man, so you practice the 'real' thing, it means that you squak 7700 and you communicate to ATC or whoever that you have an emergency? because if you dont and someone else is flying near you...well something might happen!!! or you tell me that you have a radar on board

Quote:

Perhaps if you all spend some time with a competent CFI-G soaring and learning how to effectively manage your energy than your view about powerless flight changes.

if its a competent CFI he can teach you the power management with power off and not killing the engine.

Quote:

Given the right conditions, over a large airfield, good weather, no traffic, it is not a dangerous thing to practice. If it was then we should outlaw soaring!!!!

Bob Hoover (and he was a very good pilot, maybe one of the best of all) was practicing engine off landings. every time for the area he was flying it was issued a TFR, and the area was under radar control.
it is unsafe to practice the "real" thing, it is just an adrenaline game that doenst add any good.
if something goes wrong (and you are putting yourself in a path for a disaster) and you make it out and you kill someone else what you will say to the NTSB...that you were soaring powerless to feel the "real" thing!!!
you just have to think all the consequences of everything you are doing up in the sky.
its fun if everyone play safe

kaos

shaken
the danger is not only in the sky...you need your engine for a go around or aborted landing.
what you will do if you have a rwy incursion? it can be another plane or a dog.
fly the airplane always ahead it means also to ponderate all the consequences.
kill the engine in flight its the most stupid thing you can do it, it is illegal and it doesnt add anything to your skill.
the people here that are against it are not pontificating, theyre just saying their experience and giving advices.
the real good pilot is not the one looking for the risk, the real good pilot is the one that is controlling and mitigating the risk.
dont be fooled by the "macho man" attitude, because when something happens they cry like babies if they make it out.
be safe out there

3664shaken

kaos I knew this would be a controversial post but it appears that you are simply afraid of doing something that you have never done.

Do gliders equipped with transponders squawk 7700?

Do I, as a glider pilot, transmit to ATC on my handheld?

Do I get particularly worried when I land at a field that powered airplanes are using concurrently with my glider?

Do I have radar on board of course not; I said in my original post that the weather had to be good. No need for Wx Radar. Perhaps you meant TCAS

I think the point is obvious, fear of the unknown is a normal human reaction, but as you gain more experience you will realize that gliding an airplane to a landing is not very difficult.

Very true, but I didn't say power management - I said energy management - very big difference.
This is a false statement; Mr. Hoover had TFR's for air shows that he flew at just like all air shows have TFR's. He did not have TFR's issued for his practice sessions, about 20 years ago I watched Bob Hoover practice in a commander, in the desert of California, it was very interesting and informative in his use of ENERGY management. We flew in and out no TFR (even though they weren’t called TFR’s back then)

Also speaking about very good pilots Bary Schiff in his proficient pilot books advocates the intelligent use engine out landings, along with many other long time pilots.

I agree to you it would be an adrenaline game, fear causes an adrenaline rush, but to an experienced person there is no adrenaline rush. That is my point, gliding an airplane to a landing over an airport should not cause a rush to any pilot. If it does then they should realize that they have a certain interpretation about this.

People make mistakes when stressed out and then bad things happen - a cool proficient pilot is more likely to have a positive outcome.

This is plainly situational ethics at best. If you are so scared of life than don't get out of bed and especially don't fly.

As pilots we manage risks, I put in my previous post how to minimize risks.

What is making you uncomfortable is the unknown. You view something in a controlled environment as a risky maneuver. I view it as less risky than doing a engine cut below Vmc with a new ME student.

For you safety is what you have experienced, this is your comfort zone and I am clearly out of you comfort zone. I highly suggest that you take some soaring lessons and widen your horizon.

Best Regards

3664shaken

kaos

You really have gotten yourself worked up over this. Let’s examine your reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaos

the danger is not only in the sky...you need your engine for a go around or aborted landing

Crikey mate, better ban all soaring. Gliders don’t do go arounds you see so I wonder how come we don’t gliders getting smashed up all the time?

Hmmmm, I think we are out of our comfort area again. You only understand powered flight so un-powered flight is scaring you.


Yup it sure does, something could break, engine could quit, and that is why we practice emergencies, even the unusual ones. Being cool calm and proficient is the best way to handle a bad situation, knowing how the airplane will truly respond is important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaos

kill the engine in flight its the most stupid thing you can do it, it is illegal and it doesnt add anything to your skill.

Pure hyperbole, if you truly think that kill the engine in flight is the most stupid thing you can do then you are a ignoramus.

How about an uncoordinated stall at 100’ agl?
How about a full pull up on a normal category a/c at say 10 kts below Vne?
What about flight into known freezing rain in a underpowered bug-smasher?

I could go on and on but I am sure everyone gets my point. Compared to what I have listed gliding an airplane to a landing is a rather benign event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaos

the real good pilot is not the one looking for the risk, the real good pilot is the one that is controlling and mitigating the risk.

Exactly right my boy, but we’ve gone over this before. This is risky to you because it is very far outside of your experiences.

Everyone of your objections fall flat on it’s face when you realize that thousands of people take the air every weekend in gliders; they don’t fall from the sky, they don’t crash on landings, as a matter of fact gliding has a lower fatality rate than powered flight. But to you this is extremely dangerous but to others, who have had this experience you statements come off as well, naive.

Do I think every pilot should try this the answer is NO. But under the right circumstances as I laid out earlier and with a person who is competent this sort of experience can be a valuable training aid.

You are highly uncomfortable with this – so it is not for you. The idea of actually landing an airplane without a engine brings fear and trepidation to your heart. You view it as risky and dangerous. To me it is basically a non-event, this is not a macho-man attitude. Are all glider pilots, macho-men or macho-women? Of course not and neither are pilots who in controlled circumstances practice what could very well happen to them in real life.

Best Regard, I hope that you start expanding your horizons it will only make you a safer and more competent pilot.

Jakob

Hi!
Well, basically I agree on Shaken's point. If you know what to expect and what to do, there is nothing to worry about. I have not yet flown powered aircraft, only gliders (as a student - don't have my rating yet), and you really start to get the feel for it. I don't have very many flights in my logbook, but I see that I get more and more comfortable with the landing situation everytime I fly. I believe, that a powered aircraft with the engine out will glide just fine. All you have to know in order to be safe is how your airplane reacts and glides. I believe that Shaken did not do this in his first flight on a type so he should know his plane.
Maybe, Kaos, you should start flying gliders. I believe that it makes you a better pilot because it is still more of the "pure flying". And by the way, it is just great fun! I LOVE those winch takeoffs!!!
But please don't understand me wrongly, I am in absolutely no position to judge any of your piloting skills. I am a beginner with as good as no experience. My abilities aren't comparable to any of yours.
just my 0,2$

regards


Jakob

kaos

Shaken
dont get me wrong, i dont want to convince you that what you are doing is dangerous because i understand is radicated in you the belief is not (and im sorry for this). i try to explain the people that could read this post of the possible consequences.
having said that i have experienced both glider and powered airplane.
well the area the gliders exercise is indicated in your chart (there is a reason for that do you agree?).
the gliders have the right of way compared with airplanes powered (there is a reason for that do you agree?).
landing a glider is slightly different than landing an airplane and they are effected by ground condition more than the airplanes so if you have an unusual situation you are able to recover it better than an airplane much better(they are lighter and slower and the energy is 10 times less).
gliders have incidents and if you take the time to look in the NTSB databases you can see that most of the incident with gliders are because of rwy incursion or collision in the air (there was an incident few months ago in USA a collision with a glider and a commuter jet, the pilot in the glider was able to save his life because he was carring a parachute).
i can add more, when you kill the engine you loose also the generator and you have your avionics running on the batteries...well you can be lucky and your batteries keep running or you can be unlucky and you loose batt and avio...my point is if you are so lucky why dont you play the lottery instead of playing with your life and others too?
i will conclude this with one point...try to ask the ATC in your airport that you want to kill your engine to simulate an emergency and let me know what is their reply.
i can tell you now they will reply that this is not an approved manuever, and if you persevere in this well when you land a fed and a faa agent will wait you...one will revoke your licence and the other one will arrest you.
well if your doing these things my friend you are really a danger in the sky.
Shaken, i hope i didnt bore you with my statements and i really like you and all my fellow pilots to fly safe.

sigep_nm

Okay enough of this. Flying a glider and flying a plane are two different things, and I dont want to hear a reply on how they are not. Gliders are designed to glide, and planes are designed to fly. Killing a perfectly good engine in flight is about as dumb as you could get. Saying that you should kill a good engine to practice a real emergency is like saying that a white guy should go to Harlem, and call the first group of black people he sees a N@@g@# so he practice self defense. You should never go looking for trouble, and that is exactly what you are insinuating. My advice to you is go fly your gliders all you want, and my HR person will call you when we starting running revenue flights in a 100 seat glider. By the way maybe a little less smoking crank while your at it.

fatmike69

I recently had a student that I sent to the FSDO for a private pilot checkride with an actual fed (he wanted to save the $300 fee). During the emergeny engine out check, the examiner killed the engine using the mixture (they were at about 3000' right above an airport). Upon reaching 1500' AGL the examiner pushed the mixture back in and used the throttle to simulate the engine out the rest of the way. I discussed this with the fed and he told me he has seen way too many unsuccessful actual engine out forced landings, and it could be possibly attributed to the fact that noone ever practices gliding with the engine actually not producing any power. Some airplanes idle pretty high, and that can extend the perceived glide distance. And yes, it is legal to simulate an engine out with the mixture to a certain altitude (1500' AGL I believe).

My philosophy on this subject has changed. I used to never think about killing the engine in flight as a part of training. However, if done in the correct situation (5000' AGL right above an airport with a long runway, mixture pushed back in at a safe altitude like 2500', not busy airport) I think it is a beneficial demonstration. My Grumman does glide a little (not much, but noticeable) differently with the prop windmilling on a dead engine rather than the throttle just being pulled. In my opinion this is still safer than killing an engine on a multi in flight for training. I had a friend that instructed at ATP who lost his life conducting multi training:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...16X00876&key=1

palgia841

WHAT??? You're kidding right? Find me ANY piece of FAA literature that even insinuates the idea of killing an engine with the mixture (on a single engine)....

Last time a DE pulled that sh!t in central Florida his ticket was pulled... (his DPE authority at least...not sure about his pilot license but I wouldn't be surprised).

My $0.02.... I am a CFI-G as well as a powered aircraft CFI/MEI. I am fairly comfortable with energy management, and I enjoy practicing power-off landings in most single engine aircraft (though a J3 cub is my favorite), but I NEVER killed the engine in the process. Am I capable of landing a cub or cessna without power? Of course! But am I stupid enough to actually kill the engine and put myself UNNECESSARILY in a position where I don't have a way out? Nope!
Gliders are designed to be flown without power, and are able to control the glide through a wider range of glide angles than most aircraft. Plus, if you land long/short/in a field with a glider (which happens quite often in the glider community...often when compared to powered arcraft) you have less than half the kinetic energy to dissipate when compared to a powered aircraft (due to the difference in stall speeds).

Anyone who actually kills the engine does so ONLY to feel the adrenaine rush. That is perfectly fine for me. Some guys jump off airplanes/cliffs and do all sort of dangerous activities just to feel the rush. If its your own airplane and you're by yourself with nobody living in the vicinity of the airport, do it all you want!

BUT, I don't agree with Shaken when he talks about being "necessary" for a learning experience. For an instructor to practice this sort of thing with a student is plain CRIMINAL, because he is putting the student in a situation that poses higher-than-normal risk for NO REASON. If you can't think of WHY there is an added risk by shutting the engine then you are either too inexperienced or plain stupid.

Anyone who claims that shutting down the engine in a training flight does not add risk to the manuever (as opposed to power-idle) is simply too ignorant or in denial. Anyone who claims the added risk (however large or small it is quantified as) is offset by a "training advantage" is either ignorant or has a very poor safety attitude.
Ask the FAA why they no longer have spin training in the private/commercial/atp certification requirements?

The superior pilot is one who uses his superior judgment to avoid displays of his superior skill.

PS. Shaken, I read your last post and I see nothing wrong with practicing deadstick landings at a long rwy with your buddies. If you recognize there is a higher risk (however small....and I agree that in your scenario it is indeed small) and are willing to take the risk. What I think is crazy is to do so in a training environment or with passengers who don't need/want the higher risk exposure.