Pencil Whipped Log Book?
10-01-2012, 01:07 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by IrishFlyer757
Hello -
I am teaching a guy for his pvt at a small part 61 FBO. He is a 56 year old farmer that bought his own little Cherokee 180 before he even got his license. He is a bit wide-eyed and naiive but a good guy overall.
He asked me the other day - "What would ever keep me from just filling out all sorts of time in my logbook and reporting it to the insurance company so that my insurance premium would go down?"
I was a bit startled that he would even ask that - but knowing him he will not do that. It got me thinking though - what would stop him? How would the insurance company even know? He is the aircraft owner and once he has a private there is nobody there to police him or his log entries.
I explained to him besides the obvious insurance fraud (maybe?) and the fact that his log is considered a federal document and that falsifying it would be a bad bad idea - I didn't know what else to say.
Can anyone explain how I might better answer the question?
I am teaching a guy for his pvt at a small part 61 FBO. He is a 56 year old farmer that bought his own little Cherokee 180 before he even got his license. He is a bit wide-eyed and naiive but a good guy overall.
He asked me the other day - "What would ever keep me from just filling out all sorts of time in my logbook and reporting it to the insurance company so that my insurance premium would go down?"
I was a bit startled that he would even ask that - but knowing him he will not do that. It got me thinking though - what would stop him? How would the insurance company even know? He is the aircraft owner and once he has a private there is nobody there to police him or his log entries.
I explained to him besides the obvious insurance fraud (maybe?) and the fact that his log is considered a federal document and that falsifying it would be a bad bad idea - I didn't know what else to say.
Can anyone explain how I might better answer the question?
Years ago as a fairly new CFI, I had an identical situation. Farmer, nice guy…I’d known him most of my life. Started lessons and decided he wanted to buy an airplane. I tried to discourage it until he had his license. He went ahead and bought a 150. I did a couple of lessons in it with him and would not sign him off for solo…the owner of the school did, against my objections. Like I said, a nice guy…but wanted to do things his way. The school and I parted ways when I got an offer from my alma mater that was much better.
About a month later, I got a call from the GADO office at home. The guy was dead. And my name was in the logbook, so they wanted to know what I had done with the guy. I told them, and explained I would not sign him off because I was not convinced he wouldn’t start going out and doing his own thing.
Which is what he did. He began keeping the plane on his farm and flying it up to the airport for his lessons and out to fool around…with 15 hours of total time. He decided to fly up to the airport one morning for a cup of coffee. Called the school owner, who said it was VFR (this guy would lie to his mother for a buck).
So off he went. Into a fog bank. They recovered the plane from the river the next day.
Bottom line…there is no statute of limitations on FAA enforcement and they can and will make your life uncomfortable if they think you might have not done an adequate job of instructing.
I’d have a serious come to Jesus with the guy if I were you. And if you have ANY hint of shenanigans, drop him like a hot potato. Document it in your records and file a NASA report to cover your six.
The licenses in your back pocket are yours. No one has the right to threaten them.
Oh yeah...it IS considered falsifying a document and if he reports any of that time on his application for flight test? I do believe it becomes a felony. And he can kiss it goodbye.
10-01-2012, 01:09 PM
#12
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Joined APC: Sep 2012
Posts: 35
I heard airplane insurance is much cheaper then car insurance? Besides, I don't even think you have to buy insurance for airplanes, unlike car insurance. Anyways, I would tell him flying is a privilege not a right. It only takes one forged log to get all your certificates revoked.
10-01-2012, 03:07 PM
#13
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
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Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by category
I heard airplane insurance is much cheaper then car insurance?
Originally Posted by category
Besides, I don't even think you have to buy insurance for airplanes, unlike car insurance.
10-01-2012, 03:37 PM
#14
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Posts: 381
This student sounds like bad news. He's probably cheating on everthing else in his life.
If he messes up in his solo work or even after he gets his PVT and the FAA or insurance investigator starts asking questions this guy may throw you under the bus!!!!
( ATC guy explained it perfectly )
If he messes up in his solo work or even after he gets his PVT and the FAA or insurance investigator starts asking questions this guy may throw you under the bus!!!!
( ATC guy explained it perfectly )
Last edited by BizPilot; 10-01-2012 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Give credit to the ATC guy
10-01-2012, 11:33 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
Unless he's using said time to get a certificate, meet aeronautical experience requirements, etc, the FAA may not be terribly interested, it depends on how they want to interpret the regs, but even if there was grounds in part 61 (which could be argued with a good lawyer), the most the FAA can do is take his certs and small penalties, not throw him in jail. 61.51, it's all there. The insurance company would be the one that would go after him. I'm sure they'd sue him for misrepresentation and so on.
If it's falsification of maintenance, falsification of experience to meet currency or aeronautical experience requirements, well yeah, they are going to go after that. The FAA aren't exactly "cops", they are bound by a pretty small book (FARs) when it comes down to it. What you do outside of that is up to you, and other people would most likely be interested if it's contrary to laws or common sense.
If it's falsification of maintenance, falsification of experience to meet currency or aeronautical experience requirements, well yeah, they are going to go after that. The FAA aren't exactly "cops", they are bound by a pretty small book (FARs) when it comes down to it. What you do outside of that is up to you, and other people would most likely be interested if it's contrary to laws or common sense.
10-02-2012, 03:10 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by Climbto450
I have testified in court over someone else's criminally negligent BS. If you do something criminal the FAA calls in the FBI as their law enforcement agency. No fun!!!
10-03-2012, 03:23 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
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Posts: 1,730
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
Here's what's to prevent him - when he turns in the claim and they fail to pay because of insurance fraud. Here's the other one - the lack of CFIs willing to fly with him because of his blatant disregard for regs, SOPs, etc. Want your name in that logbook during the next BFR?
He will also have to falsify the medical application if he wants it to match. If he "retrofies" his logbook it will not coincide with the medical application times and dates.
He will also have to falsify the medical application if he wants it to match. If he "retrofies" his logbook it will not coincide with the medical application times and dates.
You only have to log time for a certificate or rating. If he isn't trying to get a higher certificate, I don't think he's disregarding regs. I update my logbook once a year (if that much) because I am not getting anymore ratings. Am I blatantly disregarding regs?
What SOP are you referring to for a private pilot flying his own airplane?
Hobbs are not required. The only problem he would have "matching" is tach time.
My medical app is not a reflection of my flight time. I have no idea how much I've flown in the last 6, 12 months. I wag it.
10-04-2012, 04:38 AM
#18
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Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
Couple things.
You only have to log time for a certificate or rating. If he isn't trying to get a higher certificate, I don't think he's disregarding regs. I update my logbook once a year (if that much) because I am not getting anymore ratings. Am I blatantly disregarding regs?
What SOP are you referring to for a private pilot flying his own airplane?
Hobbs are not required. The only problem he would have "matching" is tach time.
My medical app is not a reflection of my flight time. I have no idea how much I've flown in the last 6, 12 months. I wag it.
You only have to log time for a certificate or rating. If he isn't trying to get a higher certificate, I don't think he's disregarding regs. I update my logbook once a year (if that much) because I am not getting anymore ratings. Am I blatantly disregarding regs?
What SOP are you referring to for a private pilot flying his own airplane?
Hobbs are not required. The only problem he would have "matching" is tach time.
My medical app is not a reflection of my flight time. I have no idea how much I've flown in the last 6, 12 months. I wag it.
10-04-2012, 04:51 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
Huh??? Maybe compared to a Lamborghini, but generally airplane insurance is much more expensive than car insurance. The pilot's experience also plays a large factor in insurance rates.
You don't. Unless you rent, lease, or have an outstanding loan on your aircraft, or are a 121/135 operator, or the state you live in requires liability insurance.
You don't. Unless you rent, lease, or have an outstanding loan on your aircraft, or are a 121/135 operator, or the state you live in requires liability insurance.
When I had a school in MI in the late 90's state law required that I disclose the amount of insurance provided to all renters. No surprises when you prang the prop. Of course then the deductibles were between $250 and $500 for training and rental aircraft. Now, I've seen hull and liability go for 10K a year on a 1981 C172 for deductibles that low (training and rental use). Many mom and pop shops are forgoing hull insurance as the note gets paid off.
10-04-2012, 07:14 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by Std Deviation
Thread drift I know but the growing trend is to not fully insure for hull on older airframes and provide the student with the bill when there's an incident. I've seen deductibles in the $8000-10,000 range lately. Did they mention that on your rental agreement?
They better be careful who they rent to... a lot of kids couldn't pay that, leaving the owner holding the bag.
If I was an owner I'd charge high enough rental fees to afford insurance that would protect my assets.
Another huge gotcha in airplane rental is subrogation...that's where the owner has insurance that protects him financially, but has a clause allowing the insurance company to then go after the negligent party who caused the damage...ie the renter!
Read the fine print, don't rent unless you the renter are personally covered and with a reasonable (to you) deductible. Or you have your own renter's insurance, which would be smart for someone with assets (more liability coverage).
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