JohnBurke

What are you talking about? What has changed from most periods of time in the last 40-50 years? Nothing.

For a short period of time, 300 hour wonders were breezing through the early entry-level stages of their career in a wonderland: it wasn't reality in the industry. Those who thought they were going to have it that easy are waking up to a dose of reality that most of us have always known. Don't expect much sympathy. Some of you may actually have to pay your dues, for a change.

JamesNoBrakes

Well...,the flow of military pilots and the regionals constituting more flying traffic than the majors are two things. The job that was never supposed to be a career now is...

JohnnyG

John, you're probably the person who's opinion I respect the most here, but there are a few major differences for this generation:

1. Adjusted for inflation, people flying in entry level jobs for generations before made FAR more money, in most cases 2-3 times more. Hauling checks and flying for commuters for 35K a year on your way to make 70K in a few and 100s per year later on is not a bad career path. You can make 14K a year as a CFI flying 30 hours a month now, and then make 14K a year flying for great lakes.

2. There were jobs then. There really aren't check hauling jobs or night cargo like there was to build your hours. You can instruct Chinese kids, Indian kids, or if you're lucky...you'll be allowed to stay at ATP for a few years building ATP prerequisites, but they don't usually keep instructors that long.

3. It's quite stagnating to need 1 or 2 thousand hours of dual given before you get to the next step, and you don't learn as much as you'd think. Hard IFR hours are hard for low time pilots to come by anymore. Summed up, you guys at 1,000 hours were probably twice the pilots we are as we reach the same levels.


There's much talk of paying dues from generations who grew up in a land of opportunity where careers abounded. You can't simply work hard and pay dues anymore. You have to really compete on every level. I'm not saying you guys didn't work hard and compete, I'm saying there were orders of magnitude more opportunities then. There are 300 million people and far less jobs now.

I'm here because I love every second of aviation and busting my hump for my employers, and they tend to like me a lot as well. I'm not here because of the abounding career options. I just have jobs.

To reiterate, I'm not challenging you, I just wanted to make a few points.

JohnBurke

Challenging is fine; it's how we make conversation.

Without adjustment for inflation, one of my early charter jobs paid five dollars an hour. That's right. Five dollars an hour. Even with adjustment for inflation, those were Mexican day labor rates, and entry level flying in aviation has always been poverty work. That's the price of admission to the show.

There are a few exceptions but most of us had to scrape by for the first few thousand hours before getting anywhere; it was that way then, and it's becoming that way again, now. Back to normal, back to reality.

My first job after high school was flying ag (crop dusting). I wasn't into building hours, but I was making a living and doing some good flying.

Johnny, I didn't learn to fly with the Wright brothers. I grew up without two quarters to rub together, literally. I didn't have a car, and spent my high school years peddling 15 miles each way every night to go wash and wax airplanes to pay for my flying. I lived in an abandoned house in the field, and slept in my car. I stayed 115 lbs for a lot of years...not because of a high metabolism but because there wasn't a lot of food to put in that belly. I usually worked two (sometimes three) jobs. When I instructed, I worked as a guard all night, then instructed all day, and when not doing that, I fueled, did books, and turned wrenches. I didn't sleep. While I flew air ambulance, I also cleaned theaters and turned wrenches. While flying heavy air tankers, I spent any time not flying, turning wrenches. Some of it in -20 degree temps. I wouldn't give up a minute of it, but it would be very incorrect to suggest that somehow it was easier then, with far greater opportunities.

I've seen the big wheel come around more than a few times now. Cyclical hiring, with no jobs to be found. I've been there. I was there when it took 2,500 to get hired by a regional, with multi and turbine time. I've moved more times than you'd believe, and have worked more jobs than you've got fingers and toes, twice over and nearly three. I do well now, and I'd never suggest someone find another field of work, who might be considering this, but never let it be said that it wasn't a lot of work getting here, and that sacrifices weren't part of the trail. Today opportunities abound, if people will reach out for them.

The problem is that we have a lot of people out there who expect it all now, who have unrealistic expectations, and who can't seem to fathom having to reach for it like we did not that long ago. Things come full cycle, and they may be doing so again.

JohnnyG

Right, but we are in a serious depression right now. Entry level jobs are disappearing from all sectors. It can't be as simple as a generation that hasn't realized it will have to work. In many parts of the country, my generation is completely removed from the concept of home ownership, even with hard work and good jobs.

Bellanca

This:

I'm about to start my third year CFIing with what I estimate will be another 2 more years, and things are rough. 300-350 hours a year is what I've been getting, there aren't as many new students as there were even 5-10 years ago. Combined with the fact that a lot of 135 outfits are downsizing or drying up completely, it makes getting to that first 1500-2000 hours really difficult.

What is probably the most frustrating thing, is the mentality that all of the new pilots have had it easy, and haven't had to pay their dues. Some people in recent times have had it easy, but I wasn't one of them. Finishing my commercial in 2009 when there was a complete hiring freeze didn't help with getting my career on track, and it's been a constant uphill battle since. 5 years of 20K/year CFI pay just may not be feasible for me. It's really unfortunate, because I believe what will to happen to the industry with the ATP rule is that it won't be the hardest working that will make it, it will only be the people who have mommy and daddy paying their bills for the first 5-10 years of their career that will.

Yoda2

Thank you John Burke! We had a practically identical introduction to aviation, bicycle and all. I have also washed and waxed more airplanes than I care to recall. It sucked for us too, but I have fond memories and met some outstanding folks along the way. I also twisted wrenches as a mechanics helper which eventually led to an A&P certificate. There are opportunities and other pathways for these young folks besides the puppy mill to regional. There is more than one way to arrive at the same destination. Heck, John King (King Schools)told me how he got started and even wouldn't have wanted to do that! What a great guy by the way. Anyhow, Never give up!

JohnBurke

The depression is over; things are very much on the upswing. The job boards are full to overflowing. Entry level jobs abound, for those who are interested.

Home ownership? I don't own a home.

It is what it is.

CFI Guy

Definition of Ponzi scheme
noun
a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a non-existent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors:
a classic Ponzi scheme built on treachery and lies

dgolladay

One of the things that gets under my skin (that doesn't apply to everyone) are the views of some about the concept of paying dues. When I first went to school for this, everyone applying all got the same story about how we could all be hired right out of school with 250-500 hours. A lot of them took this as the be all end all word on the industry and didn't even consider the what ifs and what they'd possibly do if that backfired. I went in already with the expectation that I'd have to work my way up until I get hired (thanks to a family member at a major) and got my CFI. Trucking away trying to get 1000 more hours and somewhat enjoying it on my way. I just get irritated when people around my experience level feel this sense of entitlement that they should have been handed the job that they were promised when we all went in. Yeah, it sucks, but I'd rather be paying my dues in a training environment than ****ing and moaning about what could have and "should have" been mine while bagging groceries