Chris728

Don't get me wrong. Im not backing those pilots that work for free. Im just saying I know living on a CFI salary is tough at first and understand thats its not zero to hero like what some flight schools advertise.

Mason32

It's just amazing how the people with very little flight time marginalizes the importance of addition an experience.

Then when they later in life become senior become like the rest of us saying 1500 hours should have been a regulatory minimum decades ago. It only wasn't because for the majority of our history you didn't get into a 121 jet without several thousand hours already. This generation of pilots have NO idea how lucky they are; especially the recent ones since like 2005 on getting hired with well under 750 total hours... Even the new kids with a fresh 1500 are lucky.

USMCFLYR

There was a young (new to the game) pilot recently complaining about people with "wet" CPLs getting hired to fly in the airlines and how no one should be flying P121 with less than 900 hrs (of course this person had 950 I think at the time). It doesn't take long for the attitude Mason mentions in the post above to form. It is just that the hours keep going up with the more hours one accumulates under their own belt.

bcpilot

I had a chance to meet a 34,000 hrs ex-comair pilot at the regional pilot job fair in MCO in Nov 2012.

Is there a time when one says that I've had enough experience...

I guess, experience is never enough.......

However, there is reasonable experience for the type of operation....

The regionals as we refer to them today are NOT the regionals they were at one point & definitely NOT supposed be, what they are today.

The regionals are pretty much ready to assume the role of DOMESTIC airlines. CRJ900 & E175/E190 are much complex planes than a C404 or B1900.

The entry level jobs as we know them are not as many as they used to be & I think every one will agree with me. The banks don't need the checks to be flown, infact one doesn;t even need to go to bank to deposit a check.
Click a pic on your smart phone & the check is in your account. So what do you fly....

The students are not there, so CFI is not the option for eveyone... Pipeline patrol or any kind of low flying is defintely NOT for entry level guys.....

So, there has to be a happy medium, strike the right balance; where the entry level 800, 1000 or 1500 hrs guys should have an oppertunity to get experience somehow & move on.

This year is not 1970 or 1980 or 1990..... It is 2013....

The world has changed & so the industry & the profession will have to evolve accordingly......

saturn

You know what, the 1500 hour rule is stupid. Why? Because it isn't scientific, or motivated by solving problems. It was a knee jerk reaction by congress (just like the "if you ever failed any checkride, you cant fly 121"). Do I think that FOs at regional air carries should be highly skilled and prepared and competent to carry aboard human lives? Yes. Is this the way it should be done, with some arbitrary number? Definitely not! Why not 1600hrs, or 2700, or 1010, or 251, or 5,000? Why 1500?

Regional fatal accidents up through Sept 11, 2001: Pinnacle flameout, Comair wrong runway, and Colgan Stall. From examining the cause of these accidents, none were a result of the FO not having enough pre-airline experience. In fact, all were majorly the Captains fault. Why dont we hear screams for requiring more flight experience to become a captain? Isn't the CPT the final authority of safety for every flight? Why not 3,500hrs in the right seat, and 5,000TT for initial upgrades? If people want a Sullenberger in very cockpit than we're are looking at the wrong seat. What should scare the public more, a new hire at 1,000 hours or a 1.5-2 year upgrade? I'd pick a 1,000 pilot paired with a check airmen/experienced captain over a 2000hr FO new hire paired with a 2 year capt personally. But of course no airline pilot wants more PIC mins because that would tamper with their career progression. Also, in any of those accidents did anybody have less than 1,500 in the right seat? Would those accidents have been prevented by implementing this 1,500hr rule?
Its pretty easy. You want an FO to meet a safety standard, train him to that standard before he flies people. After the commercial license, for those interested in 121 enviroment, why not make a rating or add-on that would add some turbine sim that stresses CRM and handling emergencies, decision making, systems, cruise and decent planning, etc? Instead of doing touch'n goes in a 172 and VFR laps over the grand canyon for 1,200 hrs, train them like our military trains them and the rest of the world for that matter. Yet 75% of the future new blood at regionals are going to have to hack it out for another year in a not-very-similar enviroment of the part 91 world and take another glorified commercial checkride for 5k, just so we can feel assured they wont pull-up if they get a shaker or takeoff on the wrong runway.

Its only this way because in America we never have a real pilot shortage, so airlines can ask for more experience at the expense of the applicant. Airlines used to draw exlusively from the military, and the flying public is used to airline pilots having years of experience flying sophisticated jets, and expect nothing less. With the rise of regionals, the public was shocked to find that most places hired the Second in Command with only about 1,000 hrs and no previous jet time, as if they should just get that experience magically, all the way ignoring that the Luftansas of the world have being flying larger aircraft with less experienced 200hr FO's for decades. Pilots on the inside dont mind the 1500 hr rule though because they hope it will cause a shortage and they can get leverage for a well deserved pay raise.

UnderOveur

Hmmm. I just leave this little tidbit for us newbies to chew on...a true story.



I performed a BFR with a real gentleman yesterday. An amazing guy.

He started flying in the early 70's for the Navy in A-4s, then transitioned to F-4s, then later still to F-14s. Hit all the career high points, including a cruise as CAG (if I understood correctly). Got out, then flew for American for 13 years after that. A true, life-long pro.

He told me something relevant to this thread, and I quote:

"Flying in the Navy was completely different than flying for the airlines. In the Navy, we didn't let junior pilots fly pitching decks and bad Wx night flights unless they were paired with our most senior guys. For the single-stick planes, a guy normally had to be on his 2nd (or better) cruise to be slotted for such flights.

But the airlines aren't run with safety in mind. If the public REALLY understood how the airlines/regionals worked, no one would fly after 6 PM, esp. in bad weather."

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It's just over 24 hours later, and I am still amazed and somewhat shocked that this man needed (yes, needed) my endorsement to keep flying his Starduster Too. I am an ant compared to his size 12 shoes. Sucks for me knowing I always will be, too.

tomgoodman

I'm not so sure about that. Young pilots who show such professional respect never stop learning things, and become old pilots who are well-respected themselves.

rickair7777

That' what I was thinking too.

JohnnyG

Right up until the point where jobs are in short supply and young pilots from this generation miss out on many career milestones. Once upon a time, there were less people and more jobs. We have less jobs and orders of magnitude more people.

block30

Saturn, I understand this law is vexing. That and the checkrides failure thing is probably a bit over the top. However, I see some positives to the industry's safety culture and risk minimizing in the wake of the Buffalo accident.

Honest question, how many hours did these folks have prior to their first 121 gig? Odds are those are the hours spent perfecting basic flying skills and judgement. Rod Machado wrote an interesting article about the degrading in basic airmanship skills he sees-and he included professional pilots in this grouping. I wish I had a link.

A complex problem-developing professional pilots-requires more than just one fix. We're trying to manage and minimize risk. How can we do that? Metrics (numbers) are a common starting point and are more objective than subjective-for example trying to regulate flying in challenging conditions. What's that mean? Whereas a certain number of hours is black d white- which I think the government is more comfortable regulating from a black and white viewpoint.

If we simply raise total hours only, I'd say that we missed the mark. Enhancing training at part 61, 141, 135, and 121 levels is another risk management tool.

If as a corollary to this law, pilots are compensated better, I think pilots will lead better lives. A better taken care of work force will be more vibrant and lucid at work, and therefore less risk prone than workforce living at/near the poverty level. The mantra from my military leadership has always been, "If you're worried about what's going on at home, you are not focused on the mission." (and therefore a liability to that mission). Bottom line-they take care of you, so you take care of yourself and family, and ultimately execute the mission clear of mind and of sound body.

Cheers.