juxtapilot

Thanks everyone for your answers. It's nice to hear from people who actually have experience and have already done what I am just starting. I think UND will give me a couple of years to play around with some non-aviation classes. I'm not really in that big of a hurry to get into airlines so I might as well have fun in college taking classes that I want to take. I know that eventually I will end up at a regional making crappy pay so it doesn't really matter when I start that phase... Eventually I will, hopefully, achieve my dream, but it's going to take quite a few years, a lot of money, and a ton of patience before I get there.

Again, thanks for all of your great advise.

-Jake

JMT21, I have a few UND specific questions that I was hoping you might be able to shed some light on, but I can't PM yet. Could you send me an email to reach you at? (juxtapilot#hotmail.com) Thanks!

NE_Pilot

What was your major?? What is the career you have fallen back on?? Did it specifically state that you needed that degree?? The reason I ask is because I have spoken with a bunch of people who do hiring in all different types of industries, and a fair amount say you just need a 4 year degree. Like I have stated before, I know Sports Fitness Majors who are working for larger corporations in higher paying management jobs. Sports Fitness has nothing to do with Business Management. Finally, how long down the road did you pick up this fall-back career after graduating from college?

It sounds like from what you are saying it was more of your flying experience that helped to land the non-flying job, and not so much the degree.

When talking about the Majors, networking is the probably one of the best tools. A great way to network, you said so yourself in another thread, is by getting an internship with a Major. Most of these internships are only for, or show preference toward, those who are majoring in an Aviation Degree, and those with internships end up getting reduced minimums and put into a different hiring pool.

Now we have a conflict of interest, don't get the Aviation Degree because it is a waste of money, but you should get an internship because it is a great tool. The best way to get the internship is with an Aviation Degree. Personally, I would think that knowing people through the internship is a bit more helpful than having an interesting/challenging degree. I am not saying everyone should major in Aviation, but it is worth a look out, especially with the internship ability. Based on this, I am willing to surmise that the Airlines do not look down upon Pilots with Aviation degrees, if they did they would not make these offers to them, almost exculisvely.

As for the non-aviation degree being utilized down the road. That is a very doubtful prospect, why would a company hire someone with no work in the field and a 5 year+ old degree, when they could hire someone with a fresh degree and internship, or someone with that many years in the field?? The answer is they wouldn't. Just like airlines, most companies want to see currency, if you are not in the field, every year that goes by you become less and less marketable.

Aero-Engineering is an Aviation degree, is it not?? I always considered it one. Or the degree says "I took the most practical road, got an internship, and now have built up my network, got preferential hiring, and reduced minimums at a Major Airline."

My point is that you should major in something you enjoy. If your sole reason for majoring in something is because it will be a "good backup", you are making a big mistake. The chances of it actually serving as a backup are slim, and the chances you will enjoy doing it are even less. Major in what interests you, not what you think will serve as a "good backup" 5-10 years down the road

rickair7777

Without disclosing personal info which might identify me to the whole world, my degrees are technical and management related.

I was in the workforce during the big economic downturn of the late 80's/early 90's...I was fortunate, but most of my friends were not. My opinions on this came from seeing ATP's changing engine oil (automotive) and my college GF living at home and working at moto-photo for about 4 years AFTER she graduated.

There are enough majors out there that you should be able to find one that both interests you AND has value in the real world.

Aero-engineering is an engineering major...it qualifies you to do many related engineering tasks in and out of the aviation realm.

My comments on internships were directed at folks who ALREADY had that opportunity and were related to the best use of that opportunity: Use it at a major, don't waste it on a regional. I would never suggest selecting a school or a major (Esp at $100K+ per year) just to get an internship that may or may not pay off. Please don't selectively edit past history and mis-quote me...see, you should have been a journalism major!

jackspat2

Aerospace engineering is partly an aviation degree. We deal a lot more in space technology; ie rockets, satellites, that sort of stuff. I'm currently majoring in Aerospace engineering. It was my understanding that an aviation degree is more like aircraft maintenance or some general understanding of how an aircraft works. Aerospace is designing better aircraft and heat seeking missiles. I'm planning on getting my pilot license this year.

Edit: Aerospace engineering is probably 10 times harder than an aviation degree and one of the most challenging engineering degrees out there. Theres a lot of math. I'm taking vector statics right now, then on to vector dynamics. I'm also taking calculus based physics and I have another year of just plain old calculus to go. Not to mention the regular aerospace classes are tough too ie, fluid mechanics. Try figuring out the drag coefficient of a 747 on paper. Aerospace engineering isn't for the weak.

Uncle Bose

Don't sell yourself short. Aero E is closer to 100 times harder than an aviation degree. That's why it's actually worth something.
Let's acknowledge the fact that when most of us say "aviation degree," we mean a degree in flying airplanes, pure and simple, like ERAU's aero sci or UND's commercial aviation. All that entails is expanding the subjects already found in FAA-published/approved flight training manuals into bloated, padded curriculums of fluff in order to meet 120-hour accreditation requirements.

NE_Pilot

Alright, I was lumping all degrees that had Aviation or Aero into the group Aviation Degree.

NE_Pilot

Don't worry about it, more curious more than anything else. I figured I would ask because it was contrary to information I have received from different places.

Glad to hear you made it through fairly well.

That would be ideal!

Alright, I was, obviously, classifing it in the Aviation Degree category.

I'll admit I did not read that thread word for word, just the general jist of it, so it is possible I missed some of what you were saying. Yea if I majored in journalism, I could even work for the New York Times!

LAfrequentflyer

Bose.....What about the stories from Mig Alley and flying downtown Hanoi?Surely listening to an old warrior dribble on about 'going downtown' has to be worth 12K per semester?

-LAFF

HoboPilot

I've been checking out the forums here for only short time now and I don't understand why many of this site's members have problems with aerospace school's and aviation related degrees.

For me, attending UND has been one of the greatest choices I've made in my life. I'm having a great time. I joined a fraternity, Sigma Nu, I have lots of friends both in and out of aviation, I'm earning my ratings and certificates, and I'm doing it relatively cheaply. Right now I have the opportunity to not just major in Commercial Aviation, I am also double majoring in Aviation Management, and am also considering a minor in Political Science. I would not attempt having all of this on my plate if I did not feel I could achieve it. While I'm taking aviation classes taught by great professors that will help me become a better pilot, I can also take classes in fields besides aviation taught by professors who are at the forefront of their fields. I took a political science class taught by a professor who routinely travels to Washington DC to speak to Congress on Indian Gaming Policy. I'm fortunate enough to get an aviation degree while also getting the benefits of a non-aviation degree that i would have pursued instead of aviation.

I've seen that a major argument against attending an aviation school is the unreasonably high costs. I'll only speak for UND since that's all I can vouch for. Tuition this year will be $13,000 since I'm from out of state. I'll be a ND resident in the fall. My tuition will fall to $5000 a year. I'm pretty sure I'll spend at least 5 years in college since I've got so much on my plate. Published flying cost for PPL through CFII and CRJ FTD is roughly $53,000 rounding up. Let's make that number a little more realistic and assume that i would cost $60,000.

Tuiton ($13,000 for the first year)+(4x5,000)=$33,000
Room and Board ($5000 for the first year)+(4x$4000 living at my fraternity)=$21,000
Total Non-flying (normal college) costs:$54,000
Initial Total:$114,000
Scholarship:-$10,000
Total:$104,000

That cost doesn't take in to count if you take advantage of summer school’s lower tuition, work hard at your flying to help it move along faster, and scholarships earned along the way.

Majoring in Political Science at a state school in my home state of New York would have these costs:

Tuition +Room and Board 4 yearsx$16,000=$64,000

A Cessna 172SP at the part 141 flight school where I could get my PPL through CFII cost $110 wet, with instruction at $40 per hour. I wouldnt be able to get my Multi engine rating there since they have no multi engine planes. UND Warriors cost $100 per hour wet and instruction is also $40 per hour. Yes, there are flying courses done in higher performance planes than the Warriors, but if you want to you can fly the Warrior for all the courses except for your Commercial and Multi. Most UND students graduate with roughly 250-300 hours total time. let's assume it would take me 250 hours to earn the same certs and ratings minus the multi engine rating if I did it on my own at a flight school while attending college.

Flying Costs:250 hoursx$150= $37,500
Flying Costs($37,500) + SUNY Cortland costs ($64,000)= $101,500 total cost

So for me, going to UND wasn’t that hard of a choice. Sure I moved half way across the country, and I'm up in the middle of nowhere. But I've made great friends from all over the country, I'm loving every moment I have here, I have many, many more resources available to me here than where I was doing my flight training before I came to UND.

If going to an aerospace school works for you and you enjoy it, then by all means go for it. But if getting a non-aviation degree and doing your flying on the side works better for you, then go and do that. College is defined by what you make of it. If you want to get an aviation degree and also become well rounded in other academic areas, you'll make it happen. If you want a non-aviation degree and want to also learn about aviation, you'll make it happen. It doesn’t really matter where you go as long as you're happy and it works for you. Why hate on that?


Erik

Uncle Bose

You're doing better than most. (Soon to be) paying resident tuition, and getting a management degree as well.
A bad idea is paying nonresident, or worse yet, private school tuition for solely an aviation degree, which is quite useless. I'll hate on that until my dying breath, thank you very much.