Anyone get a Norwegian interview?
11-29-2017, 07:31 AM
#402
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,521
Originally Posted by Denti
The real risk is the financial and operational might of the Legacy carriers with extremely low paid employees. They do have a cost advantage you cannot match, neither can the legacy mainline carriers themselves, which leads to increased pressure on their conditions. Lufthansa mainline pilots just at the moment run a ballot to lower their T&Cs by 15% and completely abolish their scope clause, and yes it will go in favor of that proposal.
11-29-2017, 03:38 PM
#405
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 171
Ok. Let's do this.
Round two? Denti, you're up after this.
A few parting statements and questions, NEDude. You certainly don't have to answer them, or even be honest, this is the interwebs of course.
I've traveled extensively to best and the worst parts of the planet. I came away with an overwhelming sense of being incredibly fortunate to be a citizen of the USA, warts and all. It has it's issues as a country, for sure, but it's still better than anything else out there that I have experienced including the European countries that love to tell us how backwards and racist we all are. Fortunately the EU has done a MARVELOUS job showing us how humane, accepting, and tolerant their member states are over the last couple of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...European_Union
That's not me throwing stones at the EU, just pointing out that maybe this stuff is hard and complicated.
You are clearly well traveled and have experiences that few Americans will ever be willing to leave the comfort of these borders to seek out. You clearly have issues with how ALPA portrays the foreign airlines that have come knocking in our markets, and additionally you have posted some pretty strong criticism of American culture. That's certainly your right, because here in America we are all entitled to our opinion. I may not like what you have to say, but I will fight like hell to make sure you have the right to say it.
You will be eligible for Icelandic citizenship after residing there for 7 years (shorter if you marry into it or even register a domestic partnership). If you are living elsewhere in the EU the laws regarding citizenship are similar. Will you be applying? If so, will you renounce your American citizenship?
Originally Posted by NEDude
Fuel prices are directly tied to economic health, so therefore I would include them when talking about the overall economic climate.
Some of the absolute best growth we had in the US economy was with sky high fuel prices. Fracking may cause earthquakes (mitigated by the chemtrails we spray, I mean we've gotta do something. We've only got this one flat earth, so we have take care of it), but it also produced spectacular investment and growth and led the US to be a net exporter of carbon based fuels. Ask Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar how they like low oil prices.
ALPA's gross miscalculations in the early 1990s directly led to the growth of RJs at regional airlines, by refusing to discuss even allowing them at mainline carriers and insisting they be flown by poorly paid pilots on substandard contracts.
Agreed. Although I believe that APA was actually the ringleader in this case.
Frank Lorenzo took advantage of U.S. bankruptcy laws and corporate laws to impose subpar working conditions. The bankruptcy laws are again a double edged sword - they allow courts and management to impose some very poor working conditions, but they also allow companies to survive lean times and turn into to companies that are thriving and greatly improving working conditions. Had America West, American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, USAirways and United not had U.S. Chapter 11 available to them, the industry today would be very different. Sometimes you do have to take the good with the bad.
I'm going to go with you've never been through a bankruptcy, and leave it at that. I'm being a gentleman.
Of course the long term success or failure of Norwegian will have an effect on the industry. The long term success of Southwest has had a major impact on the industry too, and remember for many years they were paid significantly less than their peers at legacy airlines. The long term success or failure of Delta, United, Lufthansa, ANA, easyJet, Spirit, British Airways, Scoot, and others will all have an impact on the industry as well. Singling out one airline, which is doing what several others have been doing for decades (despite what ALPAs false and misleading propaganda videos are saying), and attributing any and all future potential failings or hardships in the industry on them is being naive.
I'm not "singling out one airline." Your purple aircraft have been mercifully spared from this round of public name calling and yelling for whatever reason. My blood still boils when I see one rolling down the tarmac in the US. I don't believe I've brought up ALPA a single time here, nor have I ever accused Norwegian, WOW, etc. of having substandard maintenance or unsafe crews.
Some of the absolute best growth we had in the US economy was with sky high fuel prices. Fracking may cause earthquakes (mitigated by the chemtrails we spray, I mean we've gotta do something. We've only got this one flat earth, so we have take care of it), but it also produced spectacular investment and growth and led the US to be a net exporter of carbon based fuels. Ask Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar how they like low oil prices.
ALPA's gross miscalculations in the early 1990s directly led to the growth of RJs at regional airlines, by refusing to discuss even allowing them at mainline carriers and insisting they be flown by poorly paid pilots on substandard contracts.
Agreed. Although I believe that APA was actually the ringleader in this case.
Frank Lorenzo took advantage of U.S. bankruptcy laws and corporate laws to impose subpar working conditions. The bankruptcy laws are again a double edged sword - they allow courts and management to impose some very poor working conditions, but they also allow companies to survive lean times and turn into to companies that are thriving and greatly improving working conditions. Had America West, American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, USAirways and United not had U.S. Chapter 11 available to them, the industry today would be very different. Sometimes you do have to take the good with the bad.
I'm going to go with you've never been through a bankruptcy, and leave it at that. I'm being a gentleman.
Of course the long term success or failure of Norwegian will have an effect on the industry. The long term success of Southwest has had a major impact on the industry too, and remember for many years they were paid significantly less than their peers at legacy airlines. The long term success or failure of Delta, United, Lufthansa, ANA, easyJet, Spirit, British Airways, Scoot, and others will all have an impact on the industry as well. Singling out one airline, which is doing what several others have been doing for decades (despite what ALPAs false and misleading propaganda videos are saying), and attributing any and all future potential failings or hardships in the industry on them is being naive.
I'm not "singling out one airline." Your purple aircraft have been mercifully spared from this round of public name calling and yelling for whatever reason. My blood still boils when I see one rolling down the tarmac in the US. I don't believe I've brought up ALPA a single time here, nor have I ever accused Norwegian, WOW, etc. of having substandard maintenance or unsafe crews.
Originally Posted by NEDude
You claim the world is not puppydogs and unicorns. Yet two sentences later you ask: "Why would I EVER want the US airlines competing on a level playing field with the rest of the world?", and later state "Nobody said it had to be fair on both sides." It sounds to me you wish to live in a world where U.S. airlines have total access to the global market, while the U.S. market is cutoff from the rest of the world. Since such a world is a complete fantasy, why not include your unicorns in it as well?
There is a huge difference between "living in a fantasy" and goals. I recognize that the scenario of all good and no bad is not a realistic one. Doesn't mean that we keep trying to get there. To a certain extent, its very similar to the Republican party's strategy of obstructionism against the Democrats. Simply put: if it favors the other side, I'm against it. Trade does NOT have to be fair on both sides. Can you actually argue that China plays by the rules with fair trade? Why do you think that is? Perhaps because they see a value to protecting and promoting their domestic industry.
Oh wait, here comes the, "well, there's nothing you can do about it and the US won't change anything because everything these airlines are doing is completely legal so none of you have a right to disagree with it" argument. Canada had the fortitude to protect their market. The UAE played hardball, and lost. It can be done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...ates_relations
Oh, and just FYI, most pilots at Norwegian, and WOW Air, are union members.
Are you? I'm honestly curious. Not sure how this works with the contract foreign guys that come in. If you are, wonderful. I'm happy for you to be part of a group that can collectively bargain for pay, work rules, and other benefits that allow a healthy work environment.
If you are not, you have to ask yourself how the union members at WOW feel about their open shop. Are they happy about it?
There is a huge difference between "living in a fantasy" and goals. I recognize that the scenario of all good and no bad is not a realistic one. Doesn't mean that we keep trying to get there. To a certain extent, its very similar to the Republican party's strategy of obstructionism against the Democrats. Simply put: if it favors the other side, I'm against it. Trade does NOT have to be fair on both sides. Can you actually argue that China plays by the rules with fair trade? Why do you think that is? Perhaps because they see a value to protecting and promoting their domestic industry.
Oh wait, here comes the, "well, there's nothing you can do about it and the US won't change anything because everything these airlines are doing is completely legal so none of you have a right to disagree with it" argument. Canada had the fortitude to protect their market. The UAE played hardball, and lost. It can be done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada...ates_relations
Oh, and just FYI, most pilots at Norwegian, and WOW Air, are union members.
Are you? I'm honestly curious. Not sure how this works with the contract foreign guys that come in. If you are, wonderful. I'm happy for you to be part of a group that can collectively bargain for pay, work rules, and other benefits that allow a healthy work environment.
If you are not, you have to ask yourself how the union members at WOW feel about their open shop. Are they happy about it?
I've traveled extensively to best and the worst parts of the planet. I came away with an overwhelming sense of being incredibly fortunate to be a citizen of the USA, warts and all. It has it's issues as a country, for sure, but it's still better than anything else out there that I have experienced including the European countries that love to tell us how backwards and racist we all are. Fortunately the EU has done a MARVELOUS job showing us how humane, accepting, and tolerant their member states are over the last couple of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...European_Union
That's not me throwing stones at the EU, just pointing out that maybe this stuff is hard and complicated.
You are clearly well traveled and have experiences that few Americans will ever be willing to leave the comfort of these borders to seek out. You clearly have issues with how ALPA portrays the foreign airlines that have come knocking in our markets, and additionally you have posted some pretty strong criticism of American culture. That's certainly your right, because here in America we are all entitled to our opinion. I may not like what you have to say, but I will fight like hell to make sure you have the right to say it.
You will be eligible for Icelandic citizenship after residing there for 7 years (shorter if you marry into it or even register a domestic partnership). If you are living elsewhere in the EU the laws regarding citizenship are similar. Will you be applying? If so, will you renounce your American citizenship?
Last edited by T28driver; 11-29-2017 at 04:19 PM.
11-29-2017, 04:17 PM
#406
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Denti
Norwegian is the least of your worries. Really. Consider Lufthansa backing their own low cost brand, that currently operates with 8 different AOCs, each of which has complete and free access to the US if they ever want to use it.
I agree! This is a clear flag of convenience situation and exactly what my worst fear is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
I believe that Norwegian does this as well, don't they have several AOC's too? Oh wait, they do! Ireland, UK, and Argentina so far.
Currently they fly just 7 A330s, but that is going to roughly double next year and more the year after. All flown by either a ryan-air like contractor employment model at Brussel Airlines, or non-unionized extremely lowly paid (max captain pay per year is 109.000€) pilots employed by a joint venture of Lufthansa and Turkish Airlines.
Same with Level, an extremly lowcost brand from IAG (which owns British Airways, Iberia and Air Lingus).
The real risk is the financial and operational might of the Legacy carriers with extremely low paid employees. They do have a cost advantage you cannot match, neither can the legacy mainline carriers themselves, which leads to increased pressure on their conditions. Lufthansa mainline pilots just at the moment run a ballot to lower their T&Cs by 15% and completely abolish their scope clause, and yes it will go in favor of that proposal.
There is no pilot shortage in Europe. Willy Walsh, CEO of IAG just commented on that as well, in their brand Air Lingus they received over 3000 quality applications for 100 jobs. And they will start flying the north atlantic in A321LR in 2019 as well.
However, you cannot call those carriers flag of convenience carriers, becaused (because they are based) from their home country.
YES I CAN. Other people can too, they just like arguing over semantics for some reason. IAG has 13 (THIRTEEN!) AOC's to it's name. Norwegian has AOC's in Ireland, the UK, and Argentina. Lufthansa has TEN wholly owned airlines across four countries! I'm sure that they are operating this way solely because it's more efficient in some way shape or form and not to have the leverage to force lower wages upon the higher paid employee groups in the consortium.
Because if that was the case, having several different companies operating in separate FLAG states in the same type OF business would definitely be a CONVENIENCE. Right?
They do have every right to operate into the US under the current open sky agreement, and those lower or lowest cost carriers will increasingly do. Especially with the nice and shiny new 737Max and A320NEO family, which allows transatlantic flights at nearly half the cost of a widebody jet per seat.
CURRENT open sky agreement. Treaties can change and be amended.
I agree! This is a clear flag of convenience situation and exactly what my worst fear is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_convenience
I believe that Norwegian does this as well, don't they have several AOC's too? Oh wait, they do! Ireland, UK, and Argentina so far.
Currently they fly just 7 A330s, but that is going to roughly double next year and more the year after. All flown by either a ryan-air like contractor employment model at Brussel Airlines, or non-unionized extremely lowly paid (max captain pay per year is 109.000€) pilots employed by a joint venture of Lufthansa and Turkish Airlines.
Same with Level, an extremly lowcost brand from IAG (which owns British Airways, Iberia and Air Lingus).
The real risk is the financial and operational might of the Legacy carriers with extremely low paid employees. They do have a cost advantage you cannot match, neither can the legacy mainline carriers themselves, which leads to increased pressure on their conditions. Lufthansa mainline pilots just at the moment run a ballot to lower their T&Cs by 15% and completely abolish their scope clause, and yes it will go in favor of that proposal.
There is no pilot shortage in Europe. Willy Walsh, CEO of IAG just commented on that as well, in their brand Air Lingus they received over 3000 quality applications for 100 jobs. And they will start flying the north atlantic in A321LR in 2019 as well.
However, you cannot call those carriers flag of convenience carriers, becaused (because they are based) from their home country.
YES I CAN. Other people can too, they just like arguing over semantics for some reason. IAG has 13 (THIRTEEN!) AOC's to it's name. Norwegian has AOC's in Ireland, the UK, and Argentina. Lufthansa has TEN wholly owned airlines across four countries! I'm sure that they are operating this way solely because it's more efficient in some way shape or form and not to have the leverage to force lower wages upon the higher paid employee groups in the consortium.
Because if that was the case, having several different companies operating in separate FLAG states in the same type OF business would definitely be a CONVENIENCE. Right?
They do have every right to operate into the US under the current open sky agreement, and those lower or lowest cost carriers will increasingly do. Especially with the nice and shiny new 737Max and A320NEO family, which allows transatlantic flights at nearly half the cost of a widebody jet per seat.
CURRENT open sky agreement. Treaties can change and be amended.
11-29-2017, 04:40 PM
#407
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,482
Originally Posted by T28driver
I'm having fun. Keep 'em coming boys. Joachim, got anything for me? Dera?
What I don't agree with is when people (and that's not you, btw) say how they use "cheap unsafe pilots", when their hiring criteria is way more strict, than an average US legacy.
11-30-2017, 05:09 AM
#408
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 747
Originally Posted by T28driver
I'm having fun. Keep 'em coming boys. Joachim, got anything for me? Dera?
-You don't like Companies to open up AOC's in other countries. This is your worst fear.
OK
-You say the current open skies agreement can be reversed.
OK, if it does, it does. It is what it is.
-My sub $200k 6 figure salary bothers you. It isn't enough.
I can live off of it, if you can't, don't apply.
Carry on with your discussion on how this new model of airline structuring is unfair. Start a new thread. You could call it: "reverse open skies" or "dismantle ICAO" or "make aviation great again". I'm not going into politics anytime soon and I'm really not interested in your opinion of the world. I've got kids who need help with school, a leaky diesel line that needs fixed, and a dryer that needs a new felt gasket.
I'll be checking back here to see if anyone has questions about Norwegian.
Shalom
...But really, start a new "make aviation great again" thread.
11-30-2017, 10:01 AM
#409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted by T28driver
Ok. Let's do this.
Round two? Denti, you're up after this.
A few parting statements and questions, NEDude. You certainly don't have to answer them, or even be honest, this is the interwebs of course.
I've traveled extensively to best and the worst parts of the planet. I came away with an overwhelming sense of being incredibly fortunate to be a citizen of the USA, warts and all. It has it's issues as a country, for sure, but it's still better than anything else out there that I have experienced including the European countries that love to tell us how backwards and racist we all are. Fortunately the EU has done a MARVELOUS job showing us how humane, accepting, and tolerant their member states are over the last couple of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...European_Union
That's not me throwing stones at the EU, just pointing out that maybe this stuff is hard and complicated.
You are clearly well traveled and have experiences that few Americans will ever be willing to leave the comfort of these borders to seek out. You clearly have issues with how ALPA portrays the foreign airlines that have come knocking in our markets, and additionally you have posted some pretty strong criticism of American culture. That's certainly your right, because here in America we are all entitled to our opinion. I may not like what you have to say, but I will fight like hell to make sure you have the right to say it.
You will be eligible for Icelandic citizenship after residing there for 7 years (shorter if you marry into it or even register a domestic partnership). If you are living elsewhere in the EU the laws regarding citizenship are similar. Will you be applying? If so, will you renounce your American citizenship?
Round two? Denti, you're up after this.
A few parting statements and questions, NEDude. You certainly don't have to answer them, or even be honest, this is the interwebs of course.
I've traveled extensively to best and the worst parts of the planet. I came away with an overwhelming sense of being incredibly fortunate to be a citizen of the USA, warts and all. It has it's issues as a country, for sure, but it's still better than anything else out there that I have experienced including the European countries that love to tell us how backwards and racist we all are. Fortunately the EU has done a MARVELOUS job showing us how humane, accepting, and tolerant their member states are over the last couple of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...European_Union
That's not me throwing stones at the EU, just pointing out that maybe this stuff is hard and complicated.
You are clearly well traveled and have experiences that few Americans will ever be willing to leave the comfort of these borders to seek out. You clearly have issues with how ALPA portrays the foreign airlines that have come knocking in our markets, and additionally you have posted some pretty strong criticism of American culture. That's certainly your right, because here in America we are all entitled to our opinion. I may not like what you have to say, but I will fight like hell to make sure you have the right to say it.
You will be eligible for Icelandic citizenship after residing there for 7 years (shorter if you marry into it or even register a domestic partnership). If you are living elsewhere in the EU the laws regarding citizenship are similar. Will you be applying? If so, will you renounce your American citizenship?
Yes, been through a few bankruptcies. I have three furloughs under my belt. Quite familiar with it.
DALPA was a major ringleader in the RJ debacle. APA may have played a role as well, but Randy Babbit played a major role in prohibiting RJs at mainline while ALPA president in the 1990s.
WOW Air has been spared because ALPA did not put the focus on them like they did with Norwegian. I would be less upset with the Norwegian criticism if Norwegian was actually doing what ALPA accused it of doing, and if Norwegian was unique in its business model. But ALPA has unfairly and unjustly levelled false accusations against them, and as a result, the mindless minions have bought it, hook line and sinker. If you oppose Norwegian, you need to oppose virtually every other European airline, all of whom have done at least some of the things you folks are complaining about with Norwegian. My mentioning of bankruptcy was in part to highlight that the internal laws of the EU/EEA are different than the internal laws of the United States. The EU/EEA model allows for multiple AOCs in different member states. That is internal to the European Union and the United States has no say in that. In fact the United States entered into the Open Skies Treaty in part because of that law, and that treaty has been greatly beneficial to U.S. airlines. On the flip side, European airlines do not have access to a U.S. style bankruptcy system, which allows insolvent airlines to continue operating while re-structuring or eliminating its debts and expenses. This has given U.S. airlines significant advantage over European airlines. So there has to be a recognition that the playing field is different across the Atlantic Ocean and those differences are part of the cost of doing international business. How about this: if we had the power to do so, would you agree to eliminating chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and force financially troubled U.S. airlines into liquidation if I could eliminate the multiple AOCs allowed within Europe?
Regarding my situation in Europe, that certainly does not belong on this forum. But I will say that I am already a dual U.S. and E.U. citizen and have been for many years..
12-01-2017, 07:02 AM
#410
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,280
Originally Posted by NEDude
A few things:
Yes, been through a few bankruptcies. I have three furloughs under my belt. Quite familiar with it.
DALPA was a major ringleader in the RJ debacle. APA may have played a role as well, but Randy Babbit played a major role in prohibiting RJs at mainline while ALPA president in the 1990s.
WOW Air has been spared because ALPA did not put the focus on them like they did with Norwegian. I would be less upset with the Norwegian criticism if Norwegian was actually doing what ALPA accused it of doing, and if Norwegian was unique in its business model. But ALPA has unfairly and unjustly levelled false accusations against them, and as a result, the mindless minions have bought it, hook line and sinker. If you oppose Norwegian, you need to oppose virtually every other European airline, all of whom have done at least some of the things you folks are complaining about with Norwegian. My mentioning of bankruptcy was in part to highlight that the internal laws of the EU/EEA are different than the internal laws of the United States. The EU/EEA model allows for multiple AOCs in different member states. That is internal to the European Union and the United States has no say in that. In fact the United States entered into the Open Skies Treaty in part because of that law, and that treaty has been greatly beneficial to U.S. airlines. On the flip side, European airlines do not have access to a U.S. style bankruptcy system, which allows insolvent airlines to continue operating while re-structuring or eliminating its debts and expenses. This has given U.S. airlines significant advantage over European airlines. So there has to be a recognition that the playing field is different across the Atlantic Ocean and those differences are part of the cost of doing international business. How about this: if we had the power to do so, would you agree to eliminating chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and force financially troubled U.S. airlines into liquidation if I could eliminate the multiple AOCs allowed within Europe?
Regarding my situation in Europe, that certainly does not belong on this forum. But I will say that I am already a dual U.S. and E.U. citizen and have been for many years..
Yes, been through a few bankruptcies. I have three furloughs under my belt. Quite familiar with it.
DALPA was a major ringleader in the RJ debacle. APA may have played a role as well, but Randy Babbit played a major role in prohibiting RJs at mainline while ALPA president in the 1990s.
WOW Air has been spared because ALPA did not put the focus on them like they did with Norwegian. I would be less upset with the Norwegian criticism if Norwegian was actually doing what ALPA accused it of doing, and if Norwegian was unique in its business model. But ALPA has unfairly and unjustly levelled false accusations against them, and as a result, the mindless minions have bought it, hook line and sinker. If you oppose Norwegian, you need to oppose virtually every other European airline, all of whom have done at least some of the things you folks are complaining about with Norwegian. My mentioning of bankruptcy was in part to highlight that the internal laws of the EU/EEA are different than the internal laws of the United States. The EU/EEA model allows for multiple AOCs in different member states. That is internal to the European Union and the United States has no say in that. In fact the United States entered into the Open Skies Treaty in part because of that law, and that treaty has been greatly beneficial to U.S. airlines. On the flip side, European airlines do not have access to a U.S. style bankruptcy system, which allows insolvent airlines to continue operating while re-structuring or eliminating its debts and expenses. This has given U.S. airlines significant advantage over European airlines. So there has to be a recognition that the playing field is different across the Atlantic Ocean and those differences are part of the cost of doing international business. How about this: if we had the power to do so, would you agree to eliminating chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and force financially troubled U.S. airlines into liquidation if I could eliminate the multiple AOCs allowed within Europe?
Regarding my situation in Europe, that certainly does not belong on this forum. But I will say that I am already a dual U.S. and E.U. citizen and have been for many years..
You seem to imply management would have loved to have RJ's at the mainline and nothing could be further from the truth. Management teams fought tooth and nail to keep the feeder airline system and enlarge and upgrade it. They still do so today. At one point before DALPA was able to secure some scope management at Delta stated they were considering the transfer of all aircraft smaller than the 757 to feeder airlines. They flew 146's at ASA to start that trend. To secure scope to block that DALPA was forced to concede to Delta Express.
In the end all of the discussion about Norwegian is probably moot. They have started this huge expansion in the most favorable airline climate ever. The latest financials show they are bleeding themselves dry and critically short of cash. The problem is likely to solve itself.
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