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Old 01-12-2019, 09:39 AM   #71  
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I would have no issue with your post if Norwegian offered the flights at a fare where they could make a reasonable sustained profit. Clearly that’s not the chase. Had fuel not dropped like a stone the last 60 days we would be reading about the shutdown of the long haul division.
Which legacies are creating long haul high density cabins?
Are you seriously not aware of the longtime practice of predatory pricing? The U.S. legacies have a long history of doing it.

All of the U.S. airlines are revamping their long-haul products to compete with LCCs:

https://www.investors.com/news/airlines-basic-economy/

And for the record, Norwegian's 787s main cabin seats are the same as the main cabin 787 seats on American, United and Air Canada. According to seatguru.com, the main cabin on all of them offer 9 abreast at 31 to 32 inch pitch (American and Air Canada are listed at 31", Norwegian is shown at 31" to 32", and United is shown at 32".)
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:56 PM   #72  
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The difference - and real problem for europilots - is allowing companies like Lufthansa to start airlines flying same/similar routes with same/similar equipment.

Companies like Eurowings, SWISS, Austrian Airlines, Germanwings, etc should all be one single company under one single pilot agreement. The pilots are allowing themselves to be whipsawed by the parent company.

The same can be said for IAG's pilots.

Scope. Get some.
Scope sounds nice. However, it is not necessarily legal. Lufthansa mainline had a scope clause and sued their management when it started the Sunexpress longhaul services taking services from Lufthansa based in DUS to that company and closing their DUS base. They lost the court case and have subsequently abandoned their scope clause alltogether while at the same time lowering their T&Cs by about 15% while the company made record profits.

IAG before it became IAG had similar issues, BA pilots went on strike over Open Skies, a french BA subsidiary offering lower cost TATL services. That was against advice of their own legal counsel. The resulting court case (BA sued BALPA) nearly bankrupted the union. After that BA pilots even went so far and worked as cabin crew during cabin crew industrial action to nullify the effectiveness of that (legal) unions action.

SWISS put the newly aquired 777 with their regional subsidiary at regional pay levels, forcing SWISS pilots to lower their conditions as well to get at least a shot at flying it. Helped of course by the fact that different unions represented their pilots before those unions merged recently.

The EU is not a united states of europe, especially in labour law there are huge differences between sovereign countries inside and outside that Union (switzerland is outside, the UK will soon be).
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:16 PM   #73  
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Originally Posted by sailingfun View Post
I would have no issue with your post if Norwegian offered the flights at a fare where they could make a reasonable sustained profit. Clearly that’s not the chase. Had fuel not dropped like a stone the last 60 days we would be reading about the shutdown of the long haul division.
Which legacies are creating long haul high density cabins?

British Airways and Air France.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:59 PM   #74  
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British Airways and Air France.
Lufthansa, Finnair.
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Old 01-16-2019, 05:26 PM   #75  
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Are you seriously not aware of the longtime practice of predatory pricing? The U.S. legacies have a long history of doing it.

All of the U.S. airlines are revamping their long-haul products to compete with LCCs:

https://www.investors.com/news/airlines-basic-economy/

And for the record, Norwegian's 787s main cabin seats are the same as the main cabin 787 seats on American, United and Air Canada. According to seatguru.com, the main cabin on all of them offer 9 abreast at 31 to 32 inch pitch (American and Air Canada are listed at 31", Norwegian is shown at 31" to 32", and United is shown at 32".)
All the major airlines are pricing their product at a level where they are making a nice profit. Delta is doing extremely well over the Atlantic. Norwegian has been losing their ass on the long haul. If they were pricing it above their costs they would be profitable dont you think?
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Old 01-16-2019, 11:36 PM   #76  
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All the major airlines are pricing their product at a level where they are making a nice profit. Delta is doing extremely well over the Atlantic. Norwegian has been losing their ass on the long haul. If they were pricing it above their costs they would be profitable dont you think?
Obviously Norwegian feels the long haul stuff is viable. The short haul fleet is the one getting the axe. For certain trans-Atlantic operation on the MAX has been a financial nightmare. Most of the issues on the 787 fleet are due to the engine problems, and that is not unique to Norwegian. Apparently the new deal with Rolls Royce eliminates much of the financial problems caused by the engines.

Unofficial word is that the recent re-structuring is being directed by IAG as part of the terms of the sale. IAG supposedly wants Norwegian mostly for the long haul operation. If that is true, then clearly IAG sees something of value in the 787 operation.
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