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Old 04-01-2019, 03:22 AM   #1  
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Default Any pilots in China have advice for a newbie?

Is this job posting for real?


Sparkle Roll Airlines Legacy 650 First Officers | VOR Holdings


E145 FO $9000 a month take home pay, and not taxed in the U.S. 6 weeks on, 3 weeks off. Do they mean $9000 a month even for the weeks I'm not working? If so that's $20,250 for 6 weeks of actual work, which comes out to $3375 a week! That's more than my current monthly take home pay (don't laugh).



If this is legit where do I sign up!? Do I pick a random agency and start the process with them or does someone know one agency who's better than another?


I don't know what I don't know, but my concerns so far would be:
1. Does time in China count as 121? When I came back I would like to be able to upgrade. If the time didn't count it would delay my career progression.
2. Are expats frowned upon in the U.S? Could I come back and get hired as an FO at a LCC, or would I be forever blackmarked and doomed to be stranded in China or have to go back to a regional and basically start the timer again?


Any news/advice would be appreciated. Trying not to get scammed here. It really looks too good to be true, but my poor pilot wallet is hoping there's a miracle chance it is.
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Old 04-01-2019, 05:57 AM   #2  
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Ok time to take the pink shades off.
How do you expect an airline in a China to count as 121?
Part 91, 135, 121 are all US (FAA) regs.
So 1000 SIC in China does NOT count towards the 121 requirements for upgrade to PIC.

China is brutal.
From 3 guys that I know that tried for PIC 737 none made it.
Two didn’t make it through the astronaut medical and the last one washed out in the sim.
Crew members are expected (required) to report any deviations from SOP/FOM etc etc etc.
There’s no such thing as calling in “fatigued” and calling in sick requires a doctor.
No union, no rights, you’re a hired minion.
Now on the bright side, as PIC life’s significantly better but you’re still only there because they need you not because they want you.

Now I do have a buddy that has lived and flown in China for the last 10-12 years, mostly as PIC.
Absolutely loves it but even before had a thing for Asia and travelled there extensively so very familiar with culture etc etc etc.
Why don’t you jumpseat on an ACMI flight to China and spend a week traveling around?
I could live there but it’s not for everyone.

Last edited by TiredSoul; 04-01-2019 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 04-01-2019, 04:53 PM   #3  
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Google "Flying Upside Down".
Thank me later.
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Old 04-01-2019, 07:25 PM   #4  
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The Chinese job are for real and pay is crazy large. The reason for this that live in China require a set of skills that are very difficult to stomach.

- They say they pay your taxes in China and you are responsible for taxes in your country of origin, yet they never provide a Tax Certificate with the require stamp. This mean you will have to pay your own taxes in the USA if you want to follow the rules and avoid headaches at a later time.
- Medicals are incredible hard done by incredible stupid doctors. You have to be careful because they can really hurt you doing test or procedures. There is not law suit in china and no one to complain to.
- Once you are lucky to pass everything come the training non training. Lot of patience and yes sir yes sir. They fly airplanes different than the rest of world an there is not way they will change YOU ADAPT TO THEM OR SUFFER A LOT OR LEAVE.
- Once flying after training if you are one of ones with the strong stomach, you will have to watch yourself from the security guy they put on the airplane, cabin crew and co pilot. They all will report you to the company of anything at all. Even miss understanding for the lack of language.
- Money is super great but have to take into account that conditions are not good at all and there is not fun at all in working in China.
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Old 04-01-2019, 11:40 PM   #5  
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Default Well, it was a nice idea

Thanks everyone for the replies. I read "Flying Upside Down," seems like it's the wild wild west out there. I had kind of assumed quality of life would be bad and that it would be part of the trade off. Can't have it all. Don't get to have high cruise speeds and keep the stall speed of a c172.


Looks like the answer will be to stay doing what I'm doing and upgrade in about a year. I was hoping scheduled air carrier is scheduled air carrier, but if it doesn't count as 121 time my U.S. career would be stuck in neutral.



Looks like PIC will provide the best bang for buck. 15k a month for 6 wks on, 3 off.

Sparkle Roll Airlines Legacy 650 Captains | VOR Holdings


Hopefully I could take time off work to try to jump thru the medical hoops and make it thru sims/whatever training. If so then if I didn't make it I could go back to work and wouldn't have lost anything except time, the money I could have made during that time, and the blow to my ego.



A320 captains get 16k a month for 4 on, 4 off. They only want captains though. So I would have to get hired by a LCC, wait years to upgrade, and by then make a decent wage/QOL so the total benefit differential in China wouldn't be nearly as staggering.



There's also the cost of giving up seniority and assuming I was able to get a job coming back, having to come back at the bottom of the seniority list again. This cost would be minimized by going to China as soon as eligible. Not much seniority to lose if I go as a very junior captain, and for me it's a LOT faster to junior CA of a E145 than an A320.



Guess I'll stick it out for a year and see. I just hate the idea of putting it off. It's too easy to say "oh, I'll do it next year" and get complacent where I'm at, or have life get in the way and for whatever reason not be willing to make the jump.



The tax is the kicker though. Having to pay tax vs not having to pay tax in the U.S. is really a big deal. For me that would be the tie breaker of where I would draw the line of being willing to sell my soul. Hopefully I can get a solid answer on that.



Thanks again all, and here's hoping the big bucks are within sight by the end of next year.

Last edited by rookie1255; 04-02-2019 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:37 AM   #6  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiredSoul View Post
Ok time to take the pink shades off.
How do you expect an airline in a China to count as 121?
Part 91, 135, 121 are all US (FAA) regs.
So 1000 SIC in China does NOT count towards the 121 requirements for upgrade to PIC.

China is brutal.
From 3 guys that I know that tried for PIC 737 none made it.
Two didn’t make it through the astronaut medical and the last one washed out in the sim.
Crew members are expected (required) to report any deviations from SOP/FOM etc etc etc.
There’s no such thing as calling in “fatigued” and calling in sick requires a doctor.
No union, no rights, you’re a hired minion.
Now on the bright side, as PIC life’s significantly better but you’re still only there because they need you not because they want you.

Now I do have a buddy that has lived and flown in China for the last 10-12 years, mostly as PIC.
Absolutely loves it but even before had a thing for Asia and travelled there extensively so very familiar with culture etc etc etc.
Why don’t you jumpseat on an ACMI flight to China and spend a week traveling around?
I could live there but it’s not for everyone.
Actually it is Part 121 time...CCAR Part 121 time

Seriously though, from my three years in China it seemed to me the vast majority of expats tolerated it at best. It is seen as a necessary evil, with the perks of a lot of pay and/or a lot of time off, but not really an enjoyable life. I would say 60-70% of the pilots I knew in China fell into this category.

There were probably 10-15% who really loved it. They got themselves a Chinese girlfriend(s), bought a house, maybe even started a family. There were a handful of guys I could see never leaving China.

The rest absolutely hated it. I had one friend who was working on a month on/month off contract and he actually ended up having a nervous breakdown over having to go back to China. I remember one Swedish guy I met when he was just starting his line training. He seemed to be all excited about starting his new Chinese job. I saw him three months later and he was looking for a way to get out. There are actually a lot of guys who started out in the "I can tolerate this for the money" camp, but after a few years moved to the "I absolutely hate this" camp. I think I was part of this group. The initial adjustment was tough, I was then able to tolerate it, but the last six months I was clamoring to get out.

One thing I would recommend to help with China is actually make an effort to learn Chinese. My agency actually discouraged us from doing so, and claimed that most Chinese could understand English, and that most people we would interact with could speak it quite well. In hindsight, I think if I had been encouraged to learn the language from the start, it could have made the experience a bit more enjoyable. There a lot of times I had a very hard time communicating with people, and that led to a sense of isolation.

Bad internet and ability to communicate with the world outside of China (that is apparently getting much worse in the two and a half years since I have been gone), questionable food safety, apocalyptic levels of pollution, and a limited ability to communicate with people, does not make for a happy existence IMHO.
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Old 04-02-2019, 09:38 AM   #7  
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If anyone is thinking of flying in China, go to Japan instead. QOL in Japan is a whole lot better. Japan is a wonderful place to live and work. China is not.

If anyone pays income taxes in China, just write that amount into your USA 1040 and deduct that from the amount you have to pay in US income taxes. The US IRS does not require any paperwork to prove this amount. Chinese companies will provide a "W2" form if asked. But you have to ask, they will not provide it without being asked.

Let's look at one example of China vs. Japan. China has blocked over 10,00 foreign websites from being accessed inside China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websit...mainland_China

In the not too distant future, China will have completely walled itself off from the Internet outside of China, except for a few "approved" websites. Nothing like this exists in Japan.
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Old 04-25-2019, 03:57 AM   #8  
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Default Flying in china

I currently flying in China for the last 10 years. I think life was different in China 10 years ago because of the lack of foreign pilots. Everything was easy and fun. Now everything is punishments. I am talking here in China you can get downgraded to F/O tomorrow for little mistake. You all will feel like flying for the dynasty. Everybody becomes leader and they forget they were my F/O. Pay is wonderful. I make $25000 a month plus extras. But QOL is ****. I fly 2 months and get 1 month off. I am trying to get out of her As soon as possible. Medical checks are very difficult. They can bust you in the sim any time and then F/O. And F/O pay. My contract is different than the rest of the pilots because I was one of the first foreign pilots here and even with that I want to leave. China is beautiful and food is great but working for an airline is the worst. Also they think they are the best pilots in the world and that they discover the wheel. But in reality you will feel like flying in the 1960’s. They haven’t had major accidents is because ATC protects them and fly them. There are not visual approaches because they will get kill. Also if the guy in front slow down to 180kts 50NM away from the airport ATC will slow down the rest of the traffic because they don’t want to make nervous the little kid that is flying in front. Is there are thunderstorms everybody will stay on the ground because ATC will not allow anybody to go!!! To dangerous!!!!jajajaja!! I write a book about everything I have seen here!! The money is not worth for the quality of life!! I WANT TO GET THE F.....OUT OF HERE ASAP. I am already hired back in the USA. Counting my days!! I am taking a cut pay of 70% but happy!! If any one wants more information PM. Also the schedules are long some times 16hrs duty to fly 6 hrs. They make their own rules.
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:37 AM   #9  
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Mercenario,

You keep referring to returning to the USA, and perhaps you already answered this, but it appears that English is not your first language. Your syntax and language is broken and choppy; it sounds like you're coming from another country, to China, to the US.

If this isn't the case and you're a native speaker, it's one thing to have a few typos, but your entire conversation reads at about a sixth grade level with a lot of issues; if you're going to be applying to US carriers, you're going to have to do something about that, especially if you're pursuing this from outside the USA.
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Old 04-25-2019, 02:45 PM   #10  
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Do NOT go to China as an FO. PIC and PIC only. The culture treats the FOs like dirt.
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