Dubai bankrupt???
02-18-2009 | 07:47 AM
#11
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Past V1:
I think there is a common misunderstanding in the U.S. as to the situation in Dubai. Let me try to clear it up somewhat.
First, it must be understood that the UAE is a "benevolent dictatorship". As such; the rulers have supreme authority to do as they please. A big part of that is promoting the country while providing limited-to-no access to the truth. The local media is effectively banned from reporting "bad stuff".
Second, there is no laws (currently?) that outlaw individuals speaking out with respect to what is going on here. This is not North Korea (yet?).
Third, you will never get the real picture through the media. The local media is effectively shut down from reporting the truth (due to implied censorship) and the foreign media, in their zealous attempt to expose the "fraud that is Dubai", tend to write articles based upon limit information and massive conjuncture to sell newspapers. Both are not indicative of what is currently happening.
As to your specifics:
1) "Dubai on the verge of bankruptcy": The facts are that the credit default swaps on Dubai debt are now priced higher than Iceland. That is not good and cannot be hidden by the government. Take it for what it is worth.
2) "Dubai borrowing money from Abu Dhabi": Once again, the facts will never be public knowledge but I suspect that is very possible. In my mind, the key question is not whether they borrowed or not but what price Abu Dhabi asks in return for their gracious loans.
It is no secret that the Al-Maktoum's (Dubai) and the Al-Nahyan's (Abu Dhabi) are not close cousins. There is a rivalry that goes back a very long time and I suspect the Al-Nahyan's are loving the position that Dubai is currently in.
You will never read what really happens in the media but I suspect there is going to be (if not already has been) an equity injection into Dubai by the Al-Nahyan's with Emirates as collateral. The recent transfer of Emirates and DNATA from direct government control to the control of a government investment fund (without explanation as to why this occurred) leads me to think some sort of equity swap has taken place.
This is not to say that Emirates is being taken over by Etihad; I would be very surprised if that was the case. From a business model point of view; it makes more sense to keep the Etihad brand (as the new, fresh, rich, up and coming brand) separate from Emirates (the "old", well established, and steady brand). Both have a place and the synergies outweigh the detriments.
The key to understanding whether some sort of financial arrangement has taken place will be evident in the next year. If you see Etihad going to new destinations that are not served by Emirates (Chicago currently comes to mind), you can rest assured there has been an "arrangement" between Emirates and Etihad/the Abu Dhabi government to support Dubai by taking a stake in Emirates. To this point Etihad has followed Emirates and attempted to compete on the same routes.......should this healthy competition suddenly disappear going forward with new routes you can rest assured something "internal" has taken place between Dubai and Abu Dhabi.
132 views and no response...ok...I will take my statement as true so far. For those who might not understand the silence...Dubai has very strict laws stating you can be jailed by statements that can damage the economy. So what I have heard or read that Dubai is keeping their verge of bankruptcy hush hush. But I can't post links because I am my phone but google "Dubai Airport abandoned cars". There is a ton of articles including one from the nytimes...which is the one that got my attention. To the men and women out it the sandpit...I wish you luck...but please if I am wrong still correct me because I don't want to start false information. I have been looking at Emirates myself but now not very comfortable about the information I have found. Thanks. Also I read that Dubai had to borrow money from Abu Daubi so in essence Abu Daubi owns Emirates...now this seems far fetched...but again please be careful when you respond...and don't respond at all if this us true...not worth going to jail...everyone else will get the point.
First, it must be understood that the UAE is a "benevolent dictatorship". As such; the rulers have supreme authority to do as they please. A big part of that is promoting the country while providing limited-to-no access to the truth. The local media is effectively banned from reporting "bad stuff".
Second, there is no laws (currently?) that outlaw individuals speaking out with respect to what is going on here. This is not North Korea (yet?).
Third, you will never get the real picture through the media. The local media is effectively shut down from reporting the truth (due to implied censorship) and the foreign media, in their zealous attempt to expose the "fraud that is Dubai", tend to write articles based upon limit information and massive conjuncture to sell newspapers. Both are not indicative of what is currently happening.
As to your specifics:
1) "Dubai on the verge of bankruptcy": The facts are that the credit default swaps on Dubai debt are now priced higher than Iceland. That is not good and cannot be hidden by the government. Take it for what it is worth.
2) "Dubai borrowing money from Abu Dhabi": Once again, the facts will never be public knowledge but I suspect that is very possible. In my mind, the key question is not whether they borrowed or not but what price Abu Dhabi asks in return for their gracious loans.
It is no secret that the Al-Maktoum's (Dubai) and the Al-Nahyan's (Abu Dhabi) are not close cousins. There is a rivalry that goes back a very long time and I suspect the Al-Nahyan's are loving the position that Dubai is currently in.
You will never read what really happens in the media but I suspect there is going to be (if not already has been) an equity injection into Dubai by the Al-Nahyan's with Emirates as collateral. The recent transfer of Emirates and DNATA from direct government control to the control of a government investment fund (without explanation as to why this occurred) leads me to think some sort of equity swap has taken place.
This is not to say that Emirates is being taken over by Etihad; I would be very surprised if that was the case. From a business model point of view; it makes more sense to keep the Etihad brand (as the new, fresh, rich, up and coming brand) separate from Emirates (the "old", well established, and steady brand). Both have a place and the synergies outweigh the detriments.
The key to understanding whether some sort of financial arrangement has taken place will be evident in the next year. If you see Etihad going to new destinations that are not served by Emirates (Chicago currently comes to mind), you can rest assured there has been an "arrangement" between Emirates and Etihad/the Abu Dhabi government to support Dubai by taking a stake in Emirates. To this point Etihad has followed Emirates and attempted to compete on the same routes.......should this healthy competition suddenly disappear going forward with new routes you can rest assured something "internal" has taken place between Dubai and Abu Dhabi.
03-25-2009 | 10:34 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,232
Likes: 62
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
FlyDubai is a low cost carrier that is attempting to get off the ground which is funded by the same family that owns EK. I thought their hiring was put on hiatus for a while.
I interviewed with them in October. The offering contained within the e-mail package was quite different than that of the formal offering. Watch for these people. They seemed less honorable as they would not engage in direct eye contact when answering questions. They tried to evade questions concerning pay and benefits.
03-26-2009 | 12:10 AM
#17
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 0
From: tri current
Just curious what questions they wouldn't answer. It's all pretty well spelled out on their website:
Employment Package
All salaries will be tax-free and paid in local currency (1 US$ = 3.66 UAE Dirham) on a monthly basis.
Captain's Salary
Salary per month Value in AED
Basic salary 25,000
Housing allowance 16,000
Transportation allowance 4,000
Variable Flying Pay *
(based on working an 80 hour month) 12,000
Projected Total 57,000
Variable Pay:
Callout Pay - If you work on a non-rostered day, you shall receive an additional AED 350 per day.
Flying Pay - You shall receive an additional AED 150 for every block-flying hour you work.
* Whilst initially flying hours will be variable and less frequent as the airline establishes itself, once in full operation it is expected that pilots will be working approximately 80 block-flying hours per month.
Bond - You will be contractually tied to flydubai with a training bond of US$ 24,000 for a period of 36 months.
Location - All employees are permanently based in Dubai, one of the world's most dynamic cities.
Medical/Dental Insurance - Free private health insurance for yourself and subsidised cover for your spouse and up to three children.
Employee Insurance Benefits - The insurance benefits for our pilots include Loss of License cover up to AED 1,000,000 and Life and Accident cover up to AED 1,200,000.
Annual Leave - 42 calendar days per year.
Annual Leave Ticket - You shall receive a free confirmed economy class ticket for yourself, spouse and up to 3 children to your annual leave destination (which shall be confirmed during the selection process).
End of Service Benefit - The end of service benefit is as per the UAE's labour law, which entitles you to the following:
1-5 years service, you receive 21 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
5+ years service you receive 30 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
Children's Educational Support - Applicable for a maximum of three children aged between 4 - 18 years, in full-time education. For primary schooling, you shall receive a reimbursement up to the value of AED 30,000 per annum. Secondary schooling is reimbursable up to the value of AED 45,000 per annum.
Type Rated Examiners (TRE)
Pilots selected/appointed to a position of TRE at flydubai will receive a monthly salary component of an additional AED 3000 per month. TREs will provide their expertise in the establishment of the standardisation, policies and procedures for flydubai. Flights flown in the capacity as a TRE will be paid at the individual Captain's pay rate.
First Officer's Salary
Salary per month Value in AED
Basic salary 18,000
Housing allowance 14,000
Transportation allowance 3,000
Variable Flying Pay *
(based on working an 80 hour month) 8,000
Projected Total 43,000
Variable Pay:
Callout Pay - If you work on a non-rostered day, you shall receive an additional AED 200 per day.
Flying Pay - You shall receive an additional AED 100 for every block-flying hour you work.
* Whilst initially flying hours will be variable and less frequent as the airline establishes itself, once in full operation it is expected that pilots will be working approximately 80 block-flying hours per month.
Bond - You will be contractually tied to flydubai with a training bond of US$ 24,000 for a period of 36 months.
Location - All employees are permanently based in Dubai, one of the world's most dynamic cities.
Medical/ Dental Insurance - Free private health insurance for yourself and subsidised cover for your spouse and up to three children.
Employee Insurance Benefits - The insurance benefits for our pilots include Loss of License cover up to AED 750,000 and Life and Accident cover up to AED 750,000.
Annual Leave - 42 calendar days per year.
Annual Leave Ticket - You shall receive a free confirmed economy class ticket for yourself, spouse and up to 3 children to your annual leave destination (which shall be confirmed during the selection process).
End of Service Benefit - The end of service benefit is as per the UAE's labour law, which entitles you to the following:
1-5 years service, you receive 21 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
5+ years service you receive 30 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
Children's Educational Support - Applicable for a maximum of three children aged between 4 - 18 years, in full-time education. For primary schooling, you shall receive a reimbursement up to the value of AED 30,000 per annum. Secondary schooling is reimbursable up to the value of AED 45,000 per annum.
Typhoonpilot
Employment Package
All salaries will be tax-free and paid in local currency (1 US$ = 3.66 UAE Dirham) on a monthly basis.
Captain's Salary
Salary per month Value in AED
Basic salary 25,000
Housing allowance 16,000
Transportation allowance 4,000
Variable Flying Pay *
(based on working an 80 hour month) 12,000
Projected Total 57,000
Variable Pay:
Callout Pay - If you work on a non-rostered day, you shall receive an additional AED 350 per day.
Flying Pay - You shall receive an additional AED 150 for every block-flying hour you work.
* Whilst initially flying hours will be variable and less frequent as the airline establishes itself, once in full operation it is expected that pilots will be working approximately 80 block-flying hours per month.
Bond - You will be contractually tied to flydubai with a training bond of US$ 24,000 for a period of 36 months.
Location - All employees are permanently based in Dubai, one of the world's most dynamic cities.
Medical/Dental Insurance - Free private health insurance for yourself and subsidised cover for your spouse and up to three children.
Employee Insurance Benefits - The insurance benefits for our pilots include Loss of License cover up to AED 1,000,000 and Life and Accident cover up to AED 1,200,000.
Annual Leave - 42 calendar days per year.
Annual Leave Ticket - You shall receive a free confirmed economy class ticket for yourself, spouse and up to 3 children to your annual leave destination (which shall be confirmed during the selection process).
End of Service Benefit - The end of service benefit is as per the UAE's labour law, which entitles you to the following:
1-5 years service, you receive 21 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
5+ years service you receive 30 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
Children's Educational Support - Applicable for a maximum of three children aged between 4 - 18 years, in full-time education. For primary schooling, you shall receive a reimbursement up to the value of AED 30,000 per annum. Secondary schooling is reimbursable up to the value of AED 45,000 per annum.
Type Rated Examiners (TRE)
Pilots selected/appointed to a position of TRE at flydubai will receive a monthly salary component of an additional AED 3000 per month. TREs will provide their expertise in the establishment of the standardisation, policies and procedures for flydubai. Flights flown in the capacity as a TRE will be paid at the individual Captain's pay rate.
First Officer's Salary
Salary per month Value in AED
Basic salary 18,000
Housing allowance 14,000
Transportation allowance 3,000
Variable Flying Pay *
(based on working an 80 hour month) 8,000
Projected Total 43,000
Variable Pay:
Callout Pay - If you work on a non-rostered day, you shall receive an additional AED 200 per day.
Flying Pay - You shall receive an additional AED 100 for every block-flying hour you work.
* Whilst initially flying hours will be variable and less frequent as the airline establishes itself, once in full operation it is expected that pilots will be working approximately 80 block-flying hours per month.
Bond - You will be contractually tied to flydubai with a training bond of US$ 24,000 for a period of 36 months.
Location - All employees are permanently based in Dubai, one of the world's most dynamic cities.
Medical/ Dental Insurance - Free private health insurance for yourself and subsidised cover for your spouse and up to three children.
Employee Insurance Benefits - The insurance benefits for our pilots include Loss of License cover up to AED 750,000 and Life and Accident cover up to AED 750,000.
Annual Leave - 42 calendar days per year.
Annual Leave Ticket - You shall receive a free confirmed economy class ticket for yourself, spouse and up to 3 children to your annual leave destination (which shall be confirmed during the selection process).
End of Service Benefit - The end of service benefit is as per the UAE's labour law, which entitles you to the following:
1-5 years service, you receive 21 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
5+ years service you receive 30 days basic salary for each completed year of employment.
Children's Educational Support - Applicable for a maximum of three children aged between 4 - 18 years, in full-time education. For primary schooling, you shall receive a reimbursement up to the value of AED 30,000 per annum. Secondary schooling is reimbursable up to the value of AED 45,000 per annum.
Typhoonpilot
03-26-2009 | 08:17 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,232
Likes: 62
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Again, I interviewed in Oct. of 2008 based on offerings created last year. I was on a short list for an interview as a TRI/TRE. A summary of information concerning pay and benefits was e-mailed to me for review. There were inconsistencies contained within their initial offering versus the formal offering.
Present at the Interview were a woman, who worked for British Airways, I believe in their HR... and an EK instructor, a retired United 777 captain who formerly flew with Pan Am.
I am not knocking as to sincerity of the managers or directors of the airline as they get their marching orders from the owners, and VPs.
I expressed concerns about conflict between their initial offering and formal offering :
FLIGHT PAY
E-mail: Flight pay based on a minimum of 80 hours per month.
Actual: Pay based on 80 hours per month.
With the aircraft purchase plan to crew ratio, it would be quite some time to fly 80 hour per month for a few years. TRE override would not be provided until on the line.
TRAINING BOND
E-mail: No mention of training bond .
Actual: 36 month non prorated $24,000 training bond, even for us initial cadre pilots (current qualified and actively flying the 737-800) who were effectively going to set up their training department.
HOUSING ALLOWANCE
E-mail: AED 16,000 or $4,300 per month. In the scheme of things the average price for a decent apartment in the city runs about AED 180,000 or $4,100 per month. As conveyed to us during the interview, the maximum annual increase in rents as decreased from circa 15% to about 7 ½ percent a year the housing allowance will not be sufficient to cover such expenses. I consulted with real estate companies in the past when I was offered a BBJ job in the region a few years back. I researched apartments on the net before attending the interview. Company personnel present at the interview really could not address the issue.
BASE PAY
I don’t recall what it was last year… however it seems to have increased.
TRANSPORTATION EXPENSE
This provision is new.
BASE PAY and PROJECTED PAY SCALES
Would not even address this issue. Cost of living a decent life is pretty expensive... and the cost of living is not going to be stagnant.
It appears that FlyDubai ramped up their insurance and education benefits since last year.
Not being satisfied with responses to my questions concerning conflicts between their initial and formal offerings, as well as other issues, I chose to discontinue the interview process.
As Sy Simm, clothing store owner, and contributer to PBS would say: “Our best constumer is an educated constumer”. I guess the same can be said for potential employees… wouldn’t you agree?
Anyway, FlyDubai will recruit some excellent talent being furloughed to make them a successful and safe low cost carrier in the region.
Happy flying;
The Capt.
Present at the Interview were a woman, who worked for British Airways, I believe in their HR... and an EK instructor, a retired United 777 captain who formerly flew with Pan Am.
I am not knocking as to sincerity of the managers or directors of the airline as they get their marching orders from the owners, and VPs.
Just curious what questions they wouldn't answer
FLIGHT PAY
E-mail: Flight pay based on a minimum of 80 hours per month.
Actual: Pay based on 80 hours per month.
With the aircraft purchase plan to crew ratio, it would be quite some time to fly 80 hour per month for a few years. TRE override would not be provided until on the line.
TRAINING BOND
E-mail: No mention of training bond .
Actual: 36 month non prorated $24,000 training bond, even for us initial cadre pilots (current qualified and actively flying the 737-800) who were effectively going to set up their training department.
HOUSING ALLOWANCE
E-mail: AED 16,000 or $4,300 per month. In the scheme of things the average price for a decent apartment in the city runs about AED 180,000 or $4,100 per month. As conveyed to us during the interview, the maximum annual increase in rents as decreased from circa 15% to about 7 ½ percent a year the housing allowance will not be sufficient to cover such expenses. I consulted with real estate companies in the past when I was offered a BBJ job in the region a few years back. I researched apartments on the net before attending the interview. Company personnel present at the interview really could not address the issue.
BASE PAY
I don’t recall what it was last year… however it seems to have increased.
TRANSPORTATION EXPENSE
This provision is new.
BASE PAY and PROJECTED PAY SCALES
Would not even address this issue. Cost of living a decent life is pretty expensive... and the cost of living is not going to be stagnant.
It appears that FlyDubai ramped up their insurance and education benefits since last year.
Not being satisfied with responses to my questions concerning conflicts between their initial and formal offerings, as well as other issues, I chose to discontinue the interview process.
As Sy Simm, clothing store owner, and contributer to PBS would say: “Our best constumer is an educated constumer”. I guess the same can be said for potential employees… wouldn’t you agree?
Anyway, FlyDubai will recruit some excellent talent being furloughed to make them a successful and safe low cost carrier in the region.
Happy flying;
The Capt.
03-27-2009 | 05:55 AM
#19
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 0
From: tri current
I guess it all boils down to the fact that start-ups are never sure of how things are going to work out. It would have been impossible for them to commit to specifics in some issues. If you have a good job then the risk might be too great. Start-ups are always a risk.
In October the housing market was just starting to crater. Rents had just peaked. I find that real estate agents themselves really have no clue as to how prices will behave. They are generally uneducated Europeans who have the gift of gab, but no concept of supply and demand fundamentals. Wish you would have asked me as all of my predictions are coming true. This is what I wrote on another site:
An update in regards to what the housing allowance will get you. Let's set aside 24,000 dirhams for utilities, which leaves us with 168,000 for rent. The municipality has a 5% tax on rent so let's call it 160,000.
In today's paper 160,000 will get you this:
The Greens - 3 bedroom, 1600 sq.ft. AED 160,000
Dubai Marina - 3 bedroom Sea View 1775 sq.ft. AED 145,000
Downtown Burj Dubai - 2 bedroom, 1572 sq.ft. AED 165,000
Arabian Ranches - Palmera Townhome 2 bed + study, 2219 sq.ft. AED 160,000
Arabian Ranches - Townhome 3 bed + study, AED 170,000
Uptown Mirdif - 2 bedroom, 1462 sq.ft. AED 120,000
Springs - Townhome 3 bedroom, 2246 sq.ft. AED 170,000
These are advertised prices and can often be negotiated down by at least 10%, probably 20% in many cases.
I didn't see any listed, but the new Nakheel Villas in Jumeirah Village are well under AED 160,000 on a rental basis. They are 2 and 3 bed villas, but the square footage is massive for the number of bedrooms.
So it's now quite within the realm of possbility to get a 3 bedroom townhome in a nice location for the allowance. Prices are heading nowhere but down over the next year so the allowance is more than adequate for reasonable housing.
Typhoonpilot
In October the housing market was just starting to crater. Rents had just peaked. I find that real estate agents themselves really have no clue as to how prices will behave. They are generally uneducated Europeans who have the gift of gab, but no concept of supply and demand fundamentals. Wish you would have asked me as all of my predictions are coming true. This is what I wrote on another site:
An update in regards to what the housing allowance will get you. Let's set aside 24,000 dirhams for utilities, which leaves us with 168,000 for rent. The municipality has a 5% tax on rent so let's call it 160,000.
In today's paper 160,000 will get you this:
The Greens - 3 bedroom, 1600 sq.ft. AED 160,000
Dubai Marina - 3 bedroom Sea View 1775 sq.ft. AED 145,000
Downtown Burj Dubai - 2 bedroom, 1572 sq.ft. AED 165,000
Arabian Ranches - Palmera Townhome 2 bed + study, 2219 sq.ft. AED 160,000
Arabian Ranches - Townhome 3 bed + study, AED 170,000
Uptown Mirdif - 2 bedroom, 1462 sq.ft. AED 120,000
Springs - Townhome 3 bedroom, 2246 sq.ft. AED 170,000
These are advertised prices and can often be negotiated down by at least 10%, probably 20% in many cases.
I didn't see any listed, but the new Nakheel Villas in Jumeirah Village are well under AED 160,000 on a rental basis. They are 2 and 3 bed villas, but the square footage is massive for the number of bedrooms.
So it's now quite within the realm of possbility to get a 3 bedroom townhome in a nice location for the allowance. Prices are heading nowhere but down over the next year so the allowance is more than adequate for reasonable housing.
Typhoonpilot
03-27-2009 | 11:14 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: B-744/748 FO
No, what it really boils down to is Ken Gile. Ex-southwest pilot/management who left to start Skybus. He and others flat-out lied to new-hires during the start up period about pay, etc... and after they all left their jobs they were told here are the ACTUAL numbers - anybody doesn't like it there is the door. Ken Gile and Skybus promised 95K for captains and 45k for fo's... then gave 65k/30k. NO ONE should trust any operation he is associated with; look at all the red flags at FlyDubai already!! The exact same things are happening!! Are you really going to ignore them and just believe what YOU think things will actually be?? They could leave you hanging, stuck with all your stuff and leases in Dubai, and you would have no one to blame but yourself. You have been warned - by someone who has personal experience with Ken Gile at Skybus!!! Look elsewhere in the gulf region; there are many other better airline operations to choose from.
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