Flight Crew Agencies - A Project
#1
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Flight Crew Agencies - A Project
Situation:
Live in Australia & am thinking of starting a new flight crew agency. Have spent a long time around the aviation industry(engineer/flight crew) & have placed around 30 pilots into Asian countries via informal relations with Management pilots in Asia
Aim:
Interested in formalizing a business & doing this properly. Doing the right thing by pilots & client airlines. Aim to start with smaller footprint from in some of the smaller Asian aviation countries , initially stay away from China/Japan/Korea
The Numbers:
1. HR industry
Discussed project with a few credible Recruiters in Aust (they survived the GFC , in legal / financial) areas. This is what they say about the numbers to make their businesses work , they take a % of between 20 to 30% of first year wage, this is paid in a lump sum. The % will get closer to 30% if the "job" is perceived as more difficult , ie: higher level job , placement overseas , more specialized tech skills etc. If the employee doesn't work out they will replace with no cost replacement
2. Flight Crew Agencies (FCA)
Say in Vietnam for example an agency would typically collect $500 per month per pilot they have placed , airline does all the admin (calculates hours / overtimes). If they FCA takes a more active role this rate will rise to $1000 per month(most don't).
So from this "metric" the FCA takes a long time to get the same % that the rest of the HR industry would use as standard % for a business to be solvent etc
Clearly if you are placing guys into LCC , they may well think after 12/18 months they would like to move to the "A List" ie: ME3 , Japan Air , China etc. So many guys will jump well before the three year contract expires , who could blame them , but it this would present a challenge for a business
The Key Challenge - Supply:
It seems the many of FCA & Airlines are playing a game of musical chairs trying to poach people from the ME to Asia or Vice Versa , or going to same old cities in Western Europe , North America , Australasia to do their various road shows etc.
Many of the growth Airlines have spent big dollars on their own cadetships etc , so trying to do the right thing but just been caught short with the rate of expansion
My personal view is that the first world is likely not the best source of flight crew anymore , as their own employment markets are quite strong , likely to only be tempted by "A List" employers in ME/Asia , and fairly skeptical about China.
Whereas taking someone from 2nd/3rd world , well in a lot of ways they have something more to play for , ie: crime at home & lower wages , & HK , Viet, etc really a much better lifestyle
Where would you find such people ?
My thinking is that you see a lot of Brazilians pilots in Asia/ME . But you seldom see many from Argentina/Chile/Peru/Colombia where many A320s are operated.
I am thinking this could be a good flight crew source for the Asian/ME market and perhaps has been ignored. Initial data indicates the wages for Capt (narrow) might be around $5K per month , but hard to get accurate data really. The airlines & FCA only occasionally seem to go to Brazil on recruitment drives , rest of South America seems largely ignored.
Questions:
1. The "metric" above regarding payment to FCA in Vietnam is quite accurate. Does anybody know what the numbers are ? , or approximate numbers in other countries ?
2. What are FCA doing wrong in terms of treatment of their pilots ? Is it lack of communication ? , just straight out dishonesty ? . This seems a tough one really as in many ways the FCA is just an "employer of convenience" to the airline, real power & decisions rest with the airlines. I guess the key is for the FCA to have strong & ongoing relations with the airline management pilots so that issues can be sorted quickly
3. It seems that many of the FCA want money for nothing , just list a whole lot criteria , come work for us "bobs your uncle , all sorted mate" etc. How many are really getting out & about looking for Pilots off the beaten track ? Or most just wanting "passive income" via the internet ?
Who are the best & why ?
4. Do you think the strategy outlined above makes any sense ? I am talking about doing multiple visits "in country" , having a serious go
Appreciate any ideas , this would be a good topic for a college paper I reckon
Live in Australia & am thinking of starting a new flight crew agency. Have spent a long time around the aviation industry(engineer/flight crew) & have placed around 30 pilots into Asian countries via informal relations with Management pilots in Asia
Aim:
Interested in formalizing a business & doing this properly. Doing the right thing by pilots & client airlines. Aim to start with smaller footprint from in some of the smaller Asian aviation countries , initially stay away from China/Japan/Korea
The Numbers:
1. HR industry
Discussed project with a few credible Recruiters in Aust (they survived the GFC , in legal / financial) areas. This is what they say about the numbers to make their businesses work , they take a % of between 20 to 30% of first year wage, this is paid in a lump sum. The % will get closer to 30% if the "job" is perceived as more difficult , ie: higher level job , placement overseas , more specialized tech skills etc. If the employee doesn't work out they will replace with no cost replacement
2. Flight Crew Agencies (FCA)
Say in Vietnam for example an agency would typically collect $500 per month per pilot they have placed , airline does all the admin (calculates hours / overtimes). If they FCA takes a more active role this rate will rise to $1000 per month(most don't).
So from this "metric" the FCA takes a long time to get the same % that the rest of the HR industry would use as standard % for a business to be solvent etc
Clearly if you are placing guys into LCC , they may well think after 12/18 months they would like to move to the "A List" ie: ME3 , Japan Air , China etc. So many guys will jump well before the three year contract expires , who could blame them , but it this would present a challenge for a business
The Key Challenge - Supply:
It seems the many of FCA & Airlines are playing a game of musical chairs trying to poach people from the ME to Asia or Vice Versa , or going to same old cities in Western Europe , North America , Australasia to do their various road shows etc.
Many of the growth Airlines have spent big dollars on their own cadetships etc , so trying to do the right thing but just been caught short with the rate of expansion
My personal view is that the first world is likely not the best source of flight crew anymore , as their own employment markets are quite strong , likely to only be tempted by "A List" employers in ME/Asia , and fairly skeptical about China.
Whereas taking someone from 2nd/3rd world , well in a lot of ways they have something more to play for , ie: crime at home & lower wages , & HK , Viet, etc really a much better lifestyle
Where would you find such people ?
My thinking is that you see a lot of Brazilians pilots in Asia/ME . But you seldom see many from Argentina/Chile/Peru/Colombia where many A320s are operated.
I am thinking this could be a good flight crew source for the Asian/ME market and perhaps has been ignored. Initial data indicates the wages for Capt (narrow) might be around $5K per month , but hard to get accurate data really. The airlines & FCA only occasionally seem to go to Brazil on recruitment drives , rest of South America seems largely ignored.
Questions:
1. The "metric" above regarding payment to FCA in Vietnam is quite accurate. Does anybody know what the numbers are ? , or approximate numbers in other countries ?
2. What are FCA doing wrong in terms of treatment of their pilots ? Is it lack of communication ? , just straight out dishonesty ? . This seems a tough one really as in many ways the FCA is just an "employer of convenience" to the airline, real power & decisions rest with the airlines. I guess the key is for the FCA to have strong & ongoing relations with the airline management pilots so that issues can be sorted quickly
3. It seems that many of the FCA want money for nothing , just list a whole lot criteria , come work for us "bobs your uncle , all sorted mate" etc. How many are really getting out & about looking for Pilots off the beaten track ? Or most just wanting "passive income" via the internet ?
Who are the best & why ?
4. Do you think the strategy outlined above makes any sense ? I am talking about doing multiple visits "in country" , having a serious go
Appreciate any ideas , this would be a good topic for a college paper I reckon
#4
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Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 25
Always nice for someone to wish you luck , so thanks for that
Yes it is a serious project
As I mentioned I have placed a number already & some were NTR so
had to arrange TR etc licence conv
Seemed to go alright , but the CPs etc who I dealt with were continually frustrated
with the low calibre candidates CV sent to them by the big boys, combined with Sales types who knew nothing about aviation
The issue I think is the supply side of the equation, get that right & you will win
Feel free to articulate why the plan is naive (no Smart tone here )
Yes it is a serious project
As I mentioned I have placed a number already & some were NTR so
had to arrange TR etc licence conv
Seemed to go alright , but the CPs etc who I dealt with were continually frustrated
with the low calibre candidates CV sent to them by the big boys, combined with Sales types who knew nothing about aviation
The issue I think is the supply side of the equation, get that right & you will win
Feel free to articulate why the plan is naive (no Smart tone here )
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Posts: 319
The issue I think is the supply side of the equation, get that right & you will win
Feel free to articulate why the plan is naive (no Smart tone here )[/QUOTE]
From what I get, you're trying to hook up potential 2nd/3rd world pilots with airlines in SE Asia excluding China Japan and Korea. Is that about right? This just doesn't seem feasible on two fronts that I see. One issue could be the caliber of pilots from 2nd/3rd world countries not measuring up to the airlines needs. What kind of training did they receive etc.. The other issue is the pay. 5k a month for a qualified captain? First officers at regional airlines in the U.S. are making about that. I doubt they will uproot themselves, go through all the regulatory hoops, medicals, etc for that kind of money. At first when I read this I thought you forgot to put a 2 in front of the 5 then I saw you mentioned 2nd/3rd world pilots and figured they could be paid a lot less. Look into Wasinc and Rishworth for contract comparisons, you'll see what I'm talking about and they are not just for China. I just don't think it would be worth your while to run some sort of low cost recruiting agency. You wouldn't make nearly as much as the big airlines pay wasinc/rishworth.
Feel free to articulate why the plan is naive (no Smart tone here )[/QUOTE]
From what I get, you're trying to hook up potential 2nd/3rd world pilots with airlines in SE Asia excluding China Japan and Korea. Is that about right? This just doesn't seem feasible on two fronts that I see. One issue could be the caliber of pilots from 2nd/3rd world countries not measuring up to the airlines needs. What kind of training did they receive etc.. The other issue is the pay. 5k a month for a qualified captain? First officers at regional airlines in the U.S. are making about that. I doubt they will uproot themselves, go through all the regulatory hoops, medicals, etc for that kind of money. At first when I read this I thought you forgot to put a 2 in front of the 5 then I saw you mentioned 2nd/3rd world pilots and figured they could be paid a lot less. Look into Wasinc and Rishworth for contract comparisons, you'll see what I'm talking about and they are not just for China. I just don't think it would be worth your while to run some sort of low cost recruiting agency. You wouldn't make nearly as much as the big airlines pay wasinc/rishworth.
#6
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Joined APC: Dec 2016
Posts: 25
Looking at hiring into the "second tier" if you like fast growth LCCs in SEAsia , typically these will pay 11/14K for Capt (all in)
Few guys from the first world want to go atm , 7/8 years ago well that was a different story, as to many options at home or if they go expat atm want "first tier" ie: ME3 or the commute contracts out of Japan/Korea/lesser extent EVA, or make the adjustments to live in China & earn the large $$
So the only option is the 2nd/3rd world or you will parking aircraft
So what I am trying to work out is where you can actually find these people from & am thinking possibly Chile/Peru/Colombia/Argentina
Trying to establish how much an A320 Capt would be paid in these countries , as if they are already paid 12k , well why go to SEA ? The fact is that a lot of Braz's are flying in Asia/ME , very much the back bone of some airlines there , strong rep.
So my thinking is if the Braz's can fly to a high standard - really no reason to think why the guys next door wouldn't. Many would have done their training in Nth America & at CAE sim centres etc.
It just seems an anomaly that the Braz's are everywhere but the other guys from South America are very few & far between in Asia/ME
(AWACS guy sent me your CV I bet you $100 I can get you a job inside two weeks)
Few guys from the first world want to go atm , 7/8 years ago well that was a different story, as to many options at home or if they go expat atm want "first tier" ie: ME3 or the commute contracts out of Japan/Korea/lesser extent EVA, or make the adjustments to live in China & earn the large $$
So the only option is the 2nd/3rd world or you will parking aircraft
So what I am trying to work out is where you can actually find these people from & am thinking possibly Chile/Peru/Colombia/Argentina
Trying to establish how much an A320 Capt would be paid in these countries , as if they are already paid 12k , well why go to SEA ? The fact is that a lot of Braz's are flying in Asia/ME , very much the back bone of some airlines there , strong rep.
So my thinking is if the Braz's can fly to a high standard - really no reason to think why the guys next door wouldn't. Many would have done their training in Nth America & at CAE sim centres etc.
It just seems an anomaly that the Braz's are everywhere but the other guys from South America are very few & far between in Asia/ME
(AWACS guy sent me your CV I bet you $100 I can get you a job inside two weeks)
#8
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Posts: 25
Well it is just a discussion 2S , people are allowed to exchange information & ideas on forums , not sure its actually a federal offence atm
I hardly think a US equivalent salary of $200k is mediocre , it would likely put you in the top 5% of salary earners in the US surely. Great dollars for an American , exceptional pay for a South American
Some people actually enjoy the experience of living OS & seek it out
The reality is that the likes of Qatar/Cathay have many thousands of suitable people on their files , a lot of the LCC don't
Yes they made all the classic mistakes , ie: not investing in training of locals etc , but nobody can wind the clock back
I hardly think a US equivalent salary of $200k is mediocre , it would likely put you in the top 5% of salary earners in the US surely. Great dollars for an American , exceptional pay for a South American
Some people actually enjoy the experience of living OS & seek it out
The reality is that the likes of Qatar/Cathay have many thousands of suitable people on their files , a lot of the LCC don't
Yes they made all the classic mistakes , ie: not investing in training of locals etc , but nobody can wind the clock back
#9
My personal view is that the first world is likely not the best source of flight crew anymore , as their own employment markets are quite strong , likely to only be tempted by "A List" employers in ME/Asia , and fairly skeptical about China.
Whereas taking someone from 2nd/3rd world , well in a lot of ways they have something more to play for , ie: crime at home & lower wages , & HK , Viet, etc really a much better lifestyle
Where would you find such people ?
My thinking is that you see a lot of Brazilians pilots in Asia/ME . But you seldom see many from Argentina/Chile/Peru/Colombia where many A320s are operated.
Whereas taking someone from 2nd/3rd world , well in a lot of ways they have something more to play for , ie: crime at home & lower wages , & HK , Viet, etc really a much better lifestyle
Where would you find such people ?
My thinking is that you see a lot of Brazilians pilots in Asia/ME . But you seldom see many from Argentina/Chile/Peru/Colombia where many A320s are operated.
First of all....., the salary level at many airlines in Latin America is low, no doubt...., but when compared to QOL and cost....., it is still one of the highest paid with more time off gigs available.
Second...., now a days the airlines are starting to grow again and getting new airplanes...., this is causing upwards movement again with folks getting the opportunity to fly new iron, Latin America is the area with highest sales of aircrafts after Asia and with the highest growth of GDP after Asia with some countries growing at over 4% a year.
Third....., there are many of us flying on the international market..., not as many as guys from Oz, the US and Europe...., but there are many of us out here. But guess what? We just move for the higher paid contracts...., a good pilot with the experience to go for one of these gigs is not going to leave GOL or LATAM making 7 or 8 grand a month to go work at Vietnam for 10 or 12 because..., once again......, we live pretty good on the third world crime infested countries you are thinking we want to escape from
Haven said that......, Venezuela might be a source of a few bodies since their economy is in shatters and their relationship with neighboring countries is not that good..., therefore the welcome mat is not rolled out for pilot jobs necessarily. But...., another problem you will find with pilots from the region is that their English is not that good..., some might have ICAO level 4 on their licenses but their English language ability is not that good.
What I'm trying to convey here is that the LCC's are just going to have to up the ante.......!
Last edited by The Dominican; 01-26-2017 at 01:51 AM.
#10
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No offense intended Dom
Just repeating what Braz guys have told me when I have spoken to them in Asia , that the crime in some of the larger cities - well put it this way it is something they don't miss
What I don't understand is why there are so many Braz guys on the international market whereas not a whole lot from the other SA countries
Seem to be a lot A320s in Colombia , maybe the Argentinians just don't like going OS - I don't know
Not so sure of living costs in SA , but I know them in Asia quite well. $150k (after tax) per year & living in HCMC - well I think people would get used to it quite quickly
Just repeating what Braz guys have told me when I have spoken to them in Asia , that the crime in some of the larger cities - well put it this way it is something they don't miss
What I don't understand is why there are so many Braz guys on the international market whereas not a whole lot from the other SA countries
Seem to be a lot A320s in Colombia , maybe the Argentinians just don't like going OS - I don't know
Not so sure of living costs in SA , but I know them in Asia quite well. $150k (after tax) per year & living in HCMC - well I think people would get used to it quite quickly
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