NJA pay grid
06-21-2017 | 09:35 PM
#31
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 9
From: PIC
You have a valid point. In that regard, I can see how the long range crews made their own bed. However, what I can't begin to understand is why the FO long-range pay scale was removed, while the PIC long-range scale was maintained.
I agree. GLC flying has a premium for a reason. We can and have done a Phenom's worst day. A Phenom pilot can't touch a GLC pilot's worst day. The SIC's should get that premium too.
It's no secret that the vast majority of these captains rely on the younger/faster/sharper FO next to them to keep them out of trouble.
Utter horse puckey. Every fleet has their percentage of fossils. I'm actually getting a little tired of hand-holding a noob through a crossing.
And then the union threw them under the bus. There should never have been a separate pay scale for anyone. Pay by seniority only...period.
I agree
I agree. GLC flying has a premium for a reason. We can and have done a Phenom's worst day. A Phenom pilot can't touch a GLC pilot's worst day. The SIC's should get that premium too.
It's no secret that the vast majority of these captains rely on the younger/faster/sharper FO next to them to keep them out of trouble.
Utter horse puckey. Every fleet has their percentage of fossils. I'm actually getting a little tired of hand-holding a noob through a crossing.
And then the union threw them under the bus. There should never have been a separate pay scale for anyone. Pay by seniority only...period.
I agree
06-22-2017 | 11:38 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,063
Likes: 0
One of the reasons Captains get extra pay is for mentoring their FOs in the operations they are performing. However, an FO should not have to be expected to babysit a fossil for 2/3 the pay. Keeping some of these septogenarians from bending metal or causing violations is a responsibility that FOs are having to endure at NJA.
06-22-2017 | 01:44 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
It's no secret that the vast majority of these captains rely on the younger/faster/sharper FO next to them to keep them out of trouble.
Utter horse puckey. Every fleet has their percentage of fossils. I'm actually getting a little tired of hand-holding a noob through a crossing.
Utter horse puckey. Every fleet has their percentage of fossils. I'm actually getting a little tired of hand-holding a noob through a crossing.
06-22-2017 | 04:29 PM
#34
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 976
Likes: 104
It's the ones who refer to it as a "part time job" that scare me. Yeah, it's part time for him, because his FO is working overtime to keep his ticket and his ass intact.
06-22-2017 | 04:35 PM
#36
Line Holder
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 6
Reality check time. I'm an SIC on the Global. I was never a captain at NetJets. I haven't really noticed as many "geezers" as in the other fleets where I've spent the vast majority of my time at NetJets. Many, if not most of the captains in the Global were hired young. This fleet is about 2/3rds captains and augmented crews are relatively rare (you can fly really far in 10 hours with two pilots). This means there are plenty of captain/ captain pairings. While there does seam to be a bit higher percentage of "weak" pilots compared you the other fleets, I don't believe that it is related to age. You are right when you say the senior captains may be here for a lot longer, but that is a function of their age. I would have to guess the majority are in their 50s with some in their 40s. We aren't moving up much with attrition from the most senior pilots. Most of the older pilots came here from the airlines before the age 65 rule change. Those pilots are not senior enough to be captains on the Global.
I agree that this fleet didn't do much to apply pressure for the '15 contract and yet the captains here reaped the biggest rewards- many making over 300k. I get paid about half of what the guys I fly with make and that feels pretty raw. That said, the eboard and negotiating committee did have some SIC influence. Unfortunately, NetJets is still over 2/3rds captains and the pie got split in a way that would get the majorities vote. I voted no, but with the full intention of leaving if things went south. The new contract isn't much to my liking, but for my personal situation it is good enough to not leave.
The section 20 lack of improvement sucks for all of us, but not really so much more for the GLC fleets. Most of us fly both ways on the crossings and have relatively few long international flights in coach. Last day domestic airlines coast to coast are common in all the fleets and not that much better than the east coast to Europe coach crossings. We do get some crappy hotels in Europe, but we also get some awesome ones from time to time- more often than I ever did in the small cabin fleets.
As far as a Phenom pilot never having as bad of a worst day than the worst day on a GLC airplane, I really can't imagine how that could be true unless the GLC pilot's day sucks because he or she won't call in sick or fatigued for a super long flight after they didn't get adequate rest of are really sick or unless they get arrested in a foreign country. There is definitely more to think about and to plan for internationally, and multi time zone changes aren't the easiest thing to deal with, but we usually have adequate time to prepare. I've done plenty of awful days in the small cabin fleets that were beyond anything I can imagine in the Global. There is the rare short overnight, but the average overnight in the Global is at least 3 hours longer than I had before and I have time to prepare for the massive body clock shifts. The small cabin fleets throw the shifts in totally randomly, often on min rest. I almost dread getting an upgrade in the small cabin fleets due to the whippings and lack of QOL I'll have. That said, the money will talk and I will go as soon as I can hold captain in anything else.
I agree that this fleet didn't do much to apply pressure for the '15 contract and yet the captains here reaped the biggest rewards- many making over 300k. I get paid about half of what the guys I fly with make and that feels pretty raw. That said, the eboard and negotiating committee did have some SIC influence. Unfortunately, NetJets is still over 2/3rds captains and the pie got split in a way that would get the majorities vote. I voted no, but with the full intention of leaving if things went south. The new contract isn't much to my liking, but for my personal situation it is good enough to not leave.
The section 20 lack of improvement sucks for all of us, but not really so much more for the GLC fleets. Most of us fly both ways on the crossings and have relatively few long international flights in coach. Last day domestic airlines coast to coast are common in all the fleets and not that much better than the east coast to Europe coach crossings. We do get some crappy hotels in Europe, but we also get some awesome ones from time to time- more often than I ever did in the small cabin fleets.
As far as a Phenom pilot never having as bad of a worst day than the worst day on a GLC airplane, I really can't imagine how that could be true unless the GLC pilot's day sucks because he or she won't call in sick or fatigued for a super long flight after they didn't get adequate rest of are really sick or unless they get arrested in a foreign country. There is definitely more to think about and to plan for internationally, and multi time zone changes aren't the easiest thing to deal with, but we usually have adequate time to prepare. I've done plenty of awful days in the small cabin fleets that were beyond anything I can imagine in the Global. There is the rare short overnight, but the average overnight in the Global is at least 3 hours longer than I had before and I have time to prepare for the massive body clock shifts. The small cabin fleets throw the shifts in totally randomly, often on min rest. I almost dread getting an upgrade in the small cabin fleets due to the whippings and lack of QOL I'll have. That said, the money will talk and I will go as soon as I can hold captain in anything else.
06-22-2017 | 05:00 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Reality check time. I'm an SIC on the Global. I was never a captain at NetJets. I haven't really noticed as many "geezers" as in the other fleets where I've spent the vast majority of my time at NetJets. Many, if not most of the captains in the Global were hired young. This fleet is about 2/3rds captains and augmented crews are relatively rare (you can fly really far in 10 hours with two pilots). This means there are plenty of captain/ captain pairings. While there does seam to be a bit higher percentage of "weak" pilots compared you the other fleets, I don't believe that it is related to age. You are right when you say the senior captains may be here for a lot longer, but that is a function of their age. I would have to guess the majority are in their 50s with some in their 40s. We aren't moving up much with attrition from the most senior pilots. Most of the older pilots came here from the airlines before the age 65 rule change. Those pilots are not senior enough to be captains on the Global.
I agree that this fleet didn't do much to apply pressure for the '15 contract and yet the captains here reaped the biggest rewards- many making over 300k. I get paid about half of what the guys I fly with make and that feels pretty raw. That said, the eboard and negotiating committee did have some SIC influence. Unfortunately, NetJets is still over 2/3rds captains and the pie got split in a way that would get the majorities vote. I voted no, but with the full intention of leaving if things went south. The new contract isn't much to my liking, but for my personal situation it is good enough to not leave.
The section 20 lack of improvement sucks for all of us, but not really so much more for the GLC fleets. Most of us fly both ways on the crossings and have relatively few long international flights in coach. Last day domestic airlines coast to coast are common in all the fleets and not that much better than the east coast to Europe coach crossings. We do get some crappy hotels in Europe, but we also get some awesome ones from time to time- more often than I ever did in the small cabin fleets.
As far as a Phenom pilot never having as bad of a worst day than the worst day on a GLC airplane, I really can't imagine how that could be true unless the GLC pilot's day sucks because he or she won't call in sick or fatigued for a super long flight after they didn't get adequate rest of are really sick or unless they get arrested in a foreign country. There is definitely more to think about and to plan for internationally, and multi time zone changes aren't the easiest thing to deal with, but we usually have adequate time to prepare. I've done plenty of awful days in the small cabin fleets that were beyond anything I can imagine in the Global. There is the rare short overnight, but the average overnight in the Global is at least 3 hours longer than I had before and I have time to prepare for the massive body clock shifts. The small cabin fleets throw the shifts in totally randomly, often on min rest. I almost dread getting an upgrade in the small cabin fleets due to the whippings and lack of QOL I'll have. That said, the money will talk and I will go as soon as I can hold captain in anything else.
I agree that this fleet didn't do much to apply pressure for the '15 contract and yet the captains here reaped the biggest rewards- many making over 300k. I get paid about half of what the guys I fly with make and that feels pretty raw. That said, the eboard and negotiating committee did have some SIC influence. Unfortunately, NetJets is still over 2/3rds captains and the pie got split in a way that would get the majorities vote. I voted no, but with the full intention of leaving if things went south. The new contract isn't much to my liking, but for my personal situation it is good enough to not leave.
The section 20 lack of improvement sucks for all of us, but not really so much more for the GLC fleets. Most of us fly both ways on the crossings and have relatively few long international flights in coach. Last day domestic airlines coast to coast are common in all the fleets and not that much better than the east coast to Europe coach crossings. We do get some crappy hotels in Europe, but we also get some awesome ones from time to time- more often than I ever did in the small cabin fleets.
As far as a Phenom pilot never having as bad of a worst day than the worst day on a GLC airplane, I really can't imagine how that could be true unless the GLC pilot's day sucks because he or she won't call in sick or fatigued for a super long flight after they didn't get adequate rest of are really sick or unless they get arrested in a foreign country. There is definitely more to think about and to plan for internationally, and multi time zone changes aren't the easiest thing to deal with, but we usually have adequate time to prepare. I've done plenty of awful days in the small cabin fleets that were beyond anything I can imagine in the Global. There is the rare short overnight, but the average overnight in the Global is at least 3 hours longer than I had before and I have time to prepare for the massive body clock shifts. The small cabin fleets throw the shifts in totally randomly, often on min rest. I almost dread getting an upgrade in the small cabin fleets due to the whippings and lack of QOL I'll have. That said, the money will talk and I will go as soon as I can hold captain in anything else.
06-22-2017 | 05:34 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,864
Likes: 0
From: Left
Reality check time. I'm an SIC on the Global. I was never a captain at NetJets. I haven't really noticed as many "geezers" as in the other fleets where I've spent the vast majority of my time at NetJets. Many, if not most of the captains in the Global were hired young. This fleet is about 2/3rds captains and augmented crews are relatively rare (you can fly really far in 10 hours with two pilots). This means there are plenty of captain/ captain pairings. While there does seam to be a bit higher percentage of "weak" pilots compared you the other fleets, I don't believe that it is related to age. You are right when you say the senior captains may be here for a lot longer, but that is a function of their age. I would have to guess the majority are in their 50s with some in their 40s. We aren't moving up much with attrition from the most senior pilots. Most of the older pilots came here from the airlines before the age 65 rule change. Those pilots are not senior enough to be captains on the Global.
I agree that this fleet didn't do much to apply pressure for the '15 contract and yet the captains here reaped the biggest rewards- many making over 300k. I get paid about half of what the guys I fly with make and that feels pretty raw. That said, the eboard and negotiating committee did have some SIC influence. Unfortunately, NetJets is still over 2/3rds captains and the pie got split in a way that would get the majorities vote. I voted no, but with the full intention of leaving if things went south. The new contract isn't much to my liking, but for my personal situation it is good enough to not leave.
The section 20 lack of improvement sucks for all of us, but not really so much more for the GLC fleets. Most of us fly both ways on the crossings and have relatively few long international flights in coach. Last day domestic airlines coast to coast are common in all the fleets and not that much better than the east coast to Europe coach crossings. We do get some crappy hotels in Europe, but we also get some awesome ones from time to time- more often than I ever did in the small cabin fleets.
As far as a Phenom pilot never having as bad of a worst day than the worst day on a GLC airplane, I really can't imagine how that could be true unless the GLC pilot's day sucks because he or she won't call in sick or fatigued for a super long flight after they didn't get adequate rest of are really sick or unless they get arrested in a foreign country. There is definitely more to think about and to plan for internationally, and multi time zone changes aren't the easiest thing to deal with, but we usually have adequate time to prepare. I've done plenty of awful days in the small cabin fleets that were beyond anything I can imagine in the Global. There is the rare short overnight, but the average overnight in the Global is at least 3 hours longer than I had before and I have time to prepare for the massive body clock shifts. The small cabin fleets throw the shifts in totally randomly, often on min rest. I almost dread getting an upgrade in the small cabin fleets due to the whippings and lack of QOL I'll have. That said, the money will talk and I will go as soon as I can hold captain in anything else.
I agree that this fleet didn't do much to apply pressure for the '15 contract and yet the captains here reaped the biggest rewards- many making over 300k. I get paid about half of what the guys I fly with make and that feels pretty raw. That said, the eboard and negotiating committee did have some SIC influence. Unfortunately, NetJets is still over 2/3rds captains and the pie got split in a way that would get the majorities vote. I voted no, but with the full intention of leaving if things went south. The new contract isn't much to my liking, but for my personal situation it is good enough to not leave.
The section 20 lack of improvement sucks for all of us, but not really so much more for the GLC fleets. Most of us fly both ways on the crossings and have relatively few long international flights in coach. Last day domestic airlines coast to coast are common in all the fleets and not that much better than the east coast to Europe coach crossings. We do get some crappy hotels in Europe, but we also get some awesome ones from time to time- more often than I ever did in the small cabin fleets.
As far as a Phenom pilot never having as bad of a worst day than the worst day on a GLC airplane, I really can't imagine how that could be true unless the GLC pilot's day sucks because he or she won't call in sick or fatigued for a super long flight after they didn't get adequate rest of are really sick or unless they get arrested in a foreign country. There is definitely more to think about and to plan for internationally, and multi time zone changes aren't the easiest thing to deal with, but we usually have adequate time to prepare. I've done plenty of awful days in the small cabin fleets that were beyond anything I can imagine in the Global. There is the rare short overnight, but the average overnight in the Global is at least 3 hours longer than I had before and I have time to prepare for the massive body clock shifts. The small cabin fleets throw the shifts in totally randomly, often on min rest. I almost dread getting an upgrade in the small cabin fleets due to the whippings and lack of QOL I'll have. That said, the money will talk and I will go as soon as I can hold captain in anything else.
06-22-2017 | 09:27 PM
#39
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 9
From: PIC
I get that...but consider your perspective here. You only fly with FO's, so that all you ever see. Imagine what you'd be witnessing if you were an FO switching from decrepit captain to captain. You'd have a much different opinion. While every fleet has their percentage, the two GLC fleets have a disproportionate number of half-dead greedy dinosaurs insisting on staying for another 3 decades - and every one of them is flagrantly incompetent. In time, there will be an accident.
Sadly, I think your final assessment will ultimately prove correct.
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