FLOPS Terminates 70 Pilots with no Regard to Seniority
05-27-2008, 04:59 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
But if FLOPS does promote and reward people based on job performance and not seniority, I would definately be interested in working for them.
It rewards ass-kissing, flying overtime, taking broken jets, and generally doing management's bidding, whether it's legal or not.
I urge you to do some research prior to further making a fool out of yourself on this forum. In the meantime, you appear to be just what Flops management is looking for. Maybe you can even jump in front of someone senior to you to upgrade. Maybe you can shack the interview and get hired directly into the left seat! That's really all you're looking for, isn't it? A shortcut?
If you want to bash ALPA National, on the other hand...sign me up.
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 05-27-2008 at 05:59 AM.
05-27-2008, 05:55 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: The Right One
Posts: 588
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
SabreDriver -
"If you really mean what you have written, then you will never fit in with any unionized group. Very shortly you will be forever known as what you are about to become, a SCAB. I truly hope not."
Do you mean that anyone that now hires on with FLOPS is a scab? I am one of those that you mention above that doesn 't necessarily understand everything about the airline industry - especially the politics of it sometimes - but I think that I am smart enough to eventually figure it out (with help) along with the commuting, the bidding, the schedules and the pay system!
In the end though - are you saying that anyone that goes to work for a company that has had to lay people off is automatically a scab?
USMCFLYR
"If you really mean what you have written, then you will never fit in with any unionized group. Very shortly you will be forever known as what you are about to become, a SCAB. I truly hope not."
Do you mean that anyone that now hires on with FLOPS is a scab? I am one of those that you mention above that doesn 't necessarily understand everything about the airline industry - especially the politics of it sometimes - but I think that I am smart enough to eventually figure it out (with help) along with the commuting, the bidding, the schedules and the pay system!
In the end though - are you saying that anyone that goes to work for a company that has had to lay people off is automatically a scab?
USMCFLYR
No,
Perhaps I was hasty in my remarks to TXpilot, to that end I think I owe him an apology, (I'm sorry for implying he was/would be a scab) What I should have been more clear on is, that the attitude of being in control of one's own destiny in a large unionized group is simply not possible. The concept that one can personally get ahead by being more productive, is bunk, B727drvr did a nice job spelling it out, BZ to him/her. Perhaps I assumed that with an attitude like that, one would be predisposed to "cross the line" and become a true scab in a valid labor action. That assumption has not been justified/validated in this case, therefore, I must retract it.
USMCFLYR, I suspect our backgrounds are similar, and a couple years ago I was about as anti-union a guy as you could find, but having seen how management can operate, even at good companies, I can now say I get it. It's not pretty, it's just business, think of it as a new set of ROE. We now have contracts, to keep both sides straight, the only thing management understands is $, it's not personal, it's just business.
TXpilot, I concur that there are deadbeat senior pilots hanging on to their positions only because of their seniority, but I submit that if they are incompetent, the professional standards and training departments at said company are the problem, not the pilot. The pilot is just the symtom, but the training/checking/standards folks are the underlying disease. So long as the pilot operates the aircraft within the boundries of the FAR's and company policy/directives and in the case of a unionized group, the current CBA/contract, it is case closed. Cross any one of those lines, then we have a problem and the contract should have a mechanism for correcting the problem/situation, complete with penalties, for both sides.
In the case of FLOPS, assuming they have a valid CBA and are represented by the IBT, I smell a class action suit here shortly. It will be interesting to watch, nothing like a paid vacation for those wrongfully terminated. From the management perspective, you don't just sack 70 folks on the same day, without checking with the legal department folks, that was a well thought out action on the part of management. Time will tell.
Either way, FLOPS doesn't sound like a place I'd want to work, no pun intended
05-27-2008, 09:54 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Right Seat
Posts: 1,458
Originally Posted by B727DRVR
OK TexasPilot76,
I think that qualifies as a good enough apology to the unfortunate 70 pilots at Flight Options all terminated the same day for "cause". The reason that I and others are so passionate about this is that terminating pilots "en mass" is something that we have seen personally at our carriers. At my one 121 airline, before we were smart enough to organize, people were promoted by "performance". Of course, that performance was arbitrary and depended how much ass you were willing to kiss: The D.O. would continually modify the "seniority list" based on a whim.... One day, 55 pilots were terminated, 12 for "cause". Some of these "causes" were union organizing, saying no to unsafe activities, and not carrying broken airplanes. Of course, we smartened up after that and organized.
At a previous 135 cargo carrier, 11 pilots, including myself, were taken hostage two weeks to the day that we voted in the union. The company called the "cause" as slow business, even though we were in heavy season and management pilots were flying their butts off and begging the other pilots to do the same. But, in amazing solidarity, the remaining pilots remained united and refused any extra flying. When management pilots timed out, and half the fleet was grounded hard across the country, the 11 MEC officers, organizers, and sympathizers were all recalled with back pay.
TexasPilot76, I am still a little concerned about your attitude despite your apology. Sometimes, "performing" for a company means doing evil and illegal things. Yes, they are out there..... At the previous 135 company that I mentioned, pilots were rewarded or punished for their "performance". The D.O. said that he wanted "Team Players".... Being a "Team Player" here would get you promoted in the jets lightening fast, but caused much disrespect among your peers. In fact, being a "Tango Pop" became a great insult among the pilot group. Here, team playing included carrying broken airplanes, going below mins to "service the customer", exceeding flight and duty times, taking off over gross, and WHATEVER ELSE IT TOOK to keep management happy. This included the ONE (1) pilot that crossed the picket line during the '97 UPS IBT strike (99 other non - "Team Player" pilots refused). While we were disgusted with that pilot, management was elated with him for "performing so well". He was now a "Team Player" until he said "no". Once he said "no" to anything, he was no longer a "team player" and thus he was performing poorly.
TexasPilot76, is this the world in which you long for...? One in which you are a Captain one day, but are downgraded or furloughed the next because a new "better" pilot or "better performer" came along....!?!? "Yes, we realize that you were a Blue Angel, but SHE was a Thunderbird AND a Shuttle Commander". So we're "letting you go..." I suggest that you read the famous book Flying the Line to understand why we fought for a union and seniority-based upgrades 75 years ago. Many of the safety benefits that you now enjoy and probably take for granted were hard fought for then, just as forced child labor and safety were fought against and for by earlier union organizers. Do you not understand this?
Finally TexasPilot76, I am concerned about your statement " I am in control of my career. My years of service does not control my career. I will work hard and do whatever it takes to achieve my goals. And that comes with hard work, not seniority." Sometimes "DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES" to achieve your goals means doing illegal acts, evil acts, or stepping upon others... At what price do your fellow pilots have to pay for your "goals"? And does "doing WHATEVER it takes" include doing illegal activities to gain your management's favor to get on top of your fellow pilots? Does "doing whatever it takes" include exceeding duty and flight times, carrying broken airplanes, going below mins, taking off over gross or without regard to performance limitations, etc. How about crossing picket lines set up by your fellow pilots or airline workers? Just where does "doing whatever it takes" to promote your own selfish goals end?
I want a fellow pilot (actually any person) to stand behind me when my cause is just, and I will do the same for them. Don't you??
To quote my former "evil" D.O., "One thousand 'atta-boys', doesen't equal one 'Oh 3hit'". Doing illegal, morally wrong, or evil things often gets you promoted, but in the end (just like Hitler and Saddam's Generals) you get a bullet to the back of the head.... Be careful of the master you choose to serve out there TexasPilot76 because at the end of the day you must look in the mirror and ask yourself if it was worth it....
Thanks for your apology to the Unfortunate Flight Options pilots and good luck in achieving your goals... Just do it with regard to others.
In Unity,
B727DRVR
I think that qualifies as a good enough apology to the unfortunate 70 pilots at Flight Options all terminated the same day for "cause". The reason that I and others are so passionate about this is that terminating pilots "en mass" is something that we have seen personally at our carriers. At my one 121 airline, before we were smart enough to organize, people were promoted by "performance". Of course, that performance was arbitrary and depended how much ass you were willing to kiss: The D.O. would continually modify the "seniority list" based on a whim.... One day, 55 pilots were terminated, 12 for "cause". Some of these "causes" were union organizing, saying no to unsafe activities, and not carrying broken airplanes. Of course, we smartened up after that and organized.
At a previous 135 cargo carrier, 11 pilots, including myself, were taken hostage two weeks to the day that we voted in the union. The company called the "cause" as slow business, even though we were in heavy season and management pilots were flying their butts off and begging the other pilots to do the same. But, in amazing solidarity, the remaining pilots remained united and refused any extra flying. When management pilots timed out, and half the fleet was grounded hard across the country, the 11 MEC officers, organizers, and sympathizers were all recalled with back pay.
TexasPilot76, I am still a little concerned about your attitude despite your apology. Sometimes, "performing" for a company means doing evil and illegal things. Yes, they are out there..... At the previous 135 company that I mentioned, pilots were rewarded or punished for their "performance". The D.O. said that he wanted "Team Players".... Being a "Team Player" here would get you promoted in the jets lightening fast, but caused much disrespect among your peers. In fact, being a "Tango Pop" became a great insult among the pilot group. Here, team playing included carrying broken airplanes, going below mins to "service the customer", exceeding flight and duty times, taking off over gross, and WHATEVER ELSE IT TOOK to keep management happy. This included the ONE (1) pilot that crossed the picket line during the '97 UPS IBT strike (99 other non - "Team Player" pilots refused). While we were disgusted with that pilot, management was elated with him for "performing so well". He was now a "Team Player" until he said "no". Once he said "no" to anything, he was no longer a "team player" and thus he was performing poorly.
TexasPilot76, is this the world in which you long for...? One in which you are a Captain one day, but are downgraded or furloughed the next because a new "better" pilot or "better performer" came along....!?!? "Yes, we realize that you were a Blue Angel, but SHE was a Thunderbird AND a Shuttle Commander". So we're "letting you go..." I suggest that you read the famous book Flying the Line to understand why we fought for a union and seniority-based upgrades 75 years ago. Many of the safety benefits that you now enjoy and probably take for granted were hard fought for then, just as forced child labor and safety were fought against and for by earlier union organizers. Do you not understand this?
Finally TexasPilot76, I am concerned about your statement " I am in control of my career. My years of service does not control my career. I will work hard and do whatever it takes to achieve my goals. And that comes with hard work, not seniority." Sometimes "DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES" to achieve your goals means doing illegal acts, evil acts, or stepping upon others... At what price do your fellow pilots have to pay for your "goals"? And does "doing WHATEVER it takes" include doing illegal activities to gain your management's favor to get on top of your fellow pilots? Does "doing whatever it takes" include exceeding duty and flight times, carrying broken airplanes, going below mins, taking off over gross or without regard to performance limitations, etc. How about crossing picket lines set up by your fellow pilots or airline workers? Just where does "doing whatever it takes" to promote your own selfish goals end?
I want a fellow pilot (actually any person) to stand behind me when my cause is just, and I will do the same for them. Don't you??
To quote my former "evil" D.O., "One thousand 'atta-boys', doesen't equal one 'Oh 3hit'". Doing illegal, morally wrong, or evil things often gets you promoted, but in the end (just like Hitler and Saddam's Generals) you get a bullet to the back of the head.... Be careful of the master you choose to serve out there TexasPilot76 because at the end of the day you must look in the mirror and ask yourself if it was worth it....
Thanks for your apology to the Unfortunate Flight Options pilots and good luck in achieving your goals... Just do it with regard to others.
In Unity,
B727DRVR
I really appreciate your constructive criticism. I do want you to know that I never implied doing anything illegal to better myself. I would never perform an illegal act to better my career.
As far as the butt kissing and politicking, I see no problem with that. It happens everyday in corporate America. People do not become CEO's of companies without a little politics. If I need to fly an extra leg or two to show my committment to the company, no problem. I might get rewarded later.
I have a strive the acheive goals and feel accomplishment for attaining them. I love to fly airplanes. I want to be in aviation the rest of my life. I just want to advance based on my hard work and not my time in service. For example, I commute, and it stinks. I can't go to work for someone in DFW, say, American Eagle, without losing money. Back to year one pay. If it were any other job, I could apply and negotiate my salary. When I went to work for a telecom company back before my aviation career, I went in at a higher pay based on my qualifications. I was brand new at the company, but still made more than most people there for the same position, despite those individuals being at the company longer.Thats how it should be everywhere.
05-27-2008, 10:17 AM
#34
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
I have never been afraid to voice my opinion of the seniority system. I have seen the union at my company represent a pilot in an attempt to save his job despite that individual having committed an act so disgusting that it would make you puke. Yet these idiots keep their job because the union fights for them, yet they do not fight to keep the junior guys from getting furloughed. You cannot judge job performance based on years of service. I am in control of my career. My years of service does not control my career. I will work hard and do whatever it takes to achieve my goals. And that comes with hard work, not seniority.
As for preventing furloughs, why would you presume any union anywhere would or should have the ability to prevent necessary furloughs in the face of a downturn in the company's fortunes?
Your intimations of work ethic are admirable, unfortunately, your suggestion that your seniority is not perhaps the most powerful factor in your career progression as an airline pilot indicates you are choosing to be stubbornly ignorant of the reality all around you. Of course, as a CRJ FO wielding such an attitude you can be forgiven your inexperience - and we can all sit back and watch as the industry and its realities teach you well and in no uncertain terms.... all in due time.
05-27-2008, 10:35 AM
#35
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
When I went to work for a telecom company back before my aviation career, I went in at a higher pay based on my qualifications. I was brand new at the company, but still made more than most people there for the same position, despite those individuals being at the company longer.Thats how it should be everywhere.
Maybe I will push for a grading scale on simulator checks to establish that fact and propel me above the multitudes of lesser pilots all around me. (This PASS/FAIL thing is just cramping my style.)
05-27-2008, 10:55 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
As far as the butt kissing and politicking, I see no problem with that.
Have you looked into a management job? I think you'd fit in well.
Last edited by Spaceman Spliff; 05-27-2008 at 11:01 AM.
05-27-2008, 06:05 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
Posts: 918
The pilots were TERMINATED, not laid off... An important difference.
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
SabreDriver -
"If you really mean what you have written, then you will never fit in with any unionized group. Very shortly you will be forever known as what you are about to become, a SCAB. I truly hope not."
Do you mean that anyone that now hires on with FLOPS is a scab? I am one of those that you mention above that doesn 't necessarily understand everything about the airline industry - especially the politics of it sometimes - but I think that I am smart enough to eventually figure it out (with help) along with the commuting, the bidding, the schedules and the pay system!
In the end though - are you saying that anyone that goes to work for a company that has had to lay people off is automatically a scab?
USMCFLYR
"If you really mean what you have written, then you will never fit in with any unionized group. Very shortly you will be forever known as what you are about to become, a SCAB. I truly hope not."
Do you mean that anyone that now hires on with FLOPS is a scab? I am one of those that you mention above that doesn 't necessarily understand everything about the airline industry - especially the politics of it sometimes - but I think that I am smart enough to eventually figure it out (with help) along with the commuting, the bidding, the schedules and the pay system!
In the end though - are you saying that anyone that goes to work for a company that has had to lay people off is automatically a scab?
USMCFLYR
The 70 hostages at Flight Options were not laid off, they were terminated: An important distinction in Civilian aviation and a potential "kiss-of-death" for your resume. And management at a bad company knows this... Believe it or not, the Pilot Records Sharing Act (PRIA) has actually been used as a weapon by the wrong people. In fact, a D.O. at a previous company gleefully exclaimed that "you guys better do what you're told or else" (...your training and performance record might be noted that you were a poor pilot) after the PRIA passed. Who in the lofty halls of Congress could have known that the PRIA could be used as a weapon against pilots to make them do something unsafe and illegal? And good luck explaining this to some HR person in the pristine crystal palaces of UPS, UAL, AA, DAL, etc. of what it was like to fly for a pirate outfit run out of a trailer in lower Michigan. "What do you mean that they asked you do do something illegal...? Why would they do that? Why didn't you just leave and go straight to United? OK, why did you really get fired...?" Realistically, with todays on-line applications, a wrongly-terminated pilot might never get the chance to even explain what happened... automatically filtered by the computer for no accidents, incidents, violations, DWI's, etc.
Sometimes good people work for bad companies run by bad people. Some might say "Why stay, then?", but we both know that would be a dumb question in this economy or in the pay-for-training mid 1990's; They stay to maintain currency until they can find a better job.
From your username, I assume that you are a Marine aviator with all the training, qualifications, pride, etc. that position implies. And from that I can safely assume with your excellent training, reputation of excellence, and fantastic military pilot networking from Marine Corps aviation that you will never have to work at a company like I described to gain time or experience and go right to the company of your choice. So here's my question, why would you or anyone want to go to a place that just laid off 70 fellow pilots (which they didn't... They terminated them!)? Obviously, they don't value their employees enough to furlough them and 70 pilots is over 12 percent of their pilot list, I believe.. I find it very improbable that 12 percent of the pilots are that bad with today's standards. How did they get through training, then, if they performed so poorly?
With the current management in place, Flight Options is not a place I would want to go. Now if they did "lay off" or terminate 70 pilots and TexasPilot still wanted to go there to take his/her chances, I don't think that would make him/her a scab since no picket line was involved.... I just think that it would be poor judgement to assume that he would fly, perform, or fare any better than the 70 fallen pilots before him. Going to a place that eats its own is questionable judgement at best.
In Unity,
B727DRVR
P.S.- Imagine how confusing and turbulent working for an airline with "performance" based upgrades... "Well, you have been a Captain here for 10 years, but we think that this Navy guy will be a better pilot... He told us so himself........."
05-27-2008, 07:38 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: DAL 737 FO
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
No disrespect to the pilots there at FLOPS. I meant no harm by the hiring comment. But if FLOPS does promote and reward people based on job performance and not seniority, I would definately be interested in working for them.
HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!
That's hilarious. Have fun with your career at FLOPS.
05-27-2008, 08:35 PM
#40
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Right Seat
Posts: 1,458
Originally Posted by DigDug
Committing disgusting and puke inducing acts does not necessarily justify termination, does it? I wonder if your company attempted to either pass its own moral judgement upon the guy's off duty activities or they screwed up the process in place for ensuring due process?
So, people that don't deserve to be where they are at get to keep their job. They should have been fired on the spot, and possible charges filed. Meanwhile, less senior guys that do their job and do it well have to sit and wait while these clowns reap the benefits.
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