FLOPS Terminates 70 Pilots with no Regard to Seniority
05-27-2008, 09:38 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
Posts: 4,357
"A Captain wizzing in a cup on the flight deck because he doesn't want to go to the back to the lav in flight."
Ahhhhh.....You'll have to do better than that.
Seeing what pax guys gotta go through to take a leak since 9/11 makes me dang glad I ended up in freight. If a guy wants to pee in a cup, maybe you should just look the other way. He has my full sympathy....
Ahhhhh.....You'll have to do better than that.
Seeing what pax guys gotta go through to take a leak since 9/11 makes me dang glad I ended up in freight. If a guy wants to pee in a cup, maybe you should just look the other way. He has my full sympathy....
05-27-2008, 09:43 PM
#42
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 43
Yeah, you gotta go... you gotta go. You took that -
I'll take the motion with the lotion...
Did the lotion have a "Union Made" label?
LOL. Certainly, assuming an accurate accounting on your part I'd say your esteemed colleague earned a set of walking papers. You cite one guy then switch to the plural as you try to make your case for clearing all of these unworthy heathens out of your way. First, back up and consider the fact that it was the company that either decided not to take the action, or that it couldn't take the action, or that it failed in defending its action to the legitimate venue. The union representative(s) likely did nothing more than insure that the rules for due process were observed.
The union works to ensure that a fair due process is a right for every pilot. It is not a reasonable or legal option to abandon that ethic in the face of your esteemed colleague and his supposed lubricated escapades.
Consider this:
Every pilot ahead of you that passes the checkrides and medicals, and maintains a safe record and satisfactory discipline deserves to remain ahead of you in the established progression. Your pedigree and/or anything else you may think gives you a claim to higher status can be used by you to get hired at the better employer. After that event, you are in a line and for fair reason.
I'll take the motion with the lotion...
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
All the acts I am referring to were committed on duty. A Captain wizzing in a cup on the flight deck because he doesn't want to go to the back to the lav in flight. A peeping tom that jumps the balconies at the hotel on an overnight with a lotion bottle in hand to peep in on unsuspecting flight attendants. In these two instances the union fought and they kept their job.
So, people that don't deserve to be where they are at get to keep their job. They should have been fired on the spot, and possible charges filed. Meanwhile, less senior guys that do their job and do it well have to sit and wait while these clowns reap the benefits.
So, people that don't deserve to be where they are at get to keep their job. They should have been fired on the spot, and possible charges filed. Meanwhile, less senior guys that do their job and do it well have to sit and wait while these clowns reap the benefits.
LOL. Certainly, assuming an accurate accounting on your part I'd say your esteemed colleague earned a set of walking papers. You cite one guy then switch to the plural as you try to make your case for clearing all of these unworthy heathens out of your way. First, back up and consider the fact that it was the company that either decided not to take the action, or that it couldn't take the action, or that it failed in defending its action to the legitimate venue. The union representative(s) likely did nothing more than insure that the rules for due process were observed.
The union works to ensure that a fair due process is a right for every pilot. It is not a reasonable or legal option to abandon that ethic in the face of your esteemed colleague and his supposed lubricated escapades.
Consider this:
Every pilot ahead of you that passes the checkrides and medicals, and maintains a safe record and satisfactory discipline deserves to remain ahead of you in the established progression. Your pedigree and/or anything else you may think gives you a claim to higher status can be used by you to get hired at the better employer. After that event, you are in a line and for fair reason.
05-27-2008, 09:57 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
A Captain wizzing in a cup on the flight deck because he doesn't want to go to the back to the lav in flight.
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
Meanwhile, less senior guys that do their job and do it well have to sit and wait while these clowns reap the benefits.
Last edited by Zapata; 05-28-2008 at 04:32 AM.
05-27-2008, 10:49 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
SabreDriver -
"and a couple years ago I was about as anti-union a guy as you could find, but having seen how management can operate, even at good companies, I can now say I get it. It's not pretty, it's just business, think of it as a new set of ROE. We now have contracts, to keep both sides straight, the only thing management understands is $, it's not personal, it's just business. "
I have thought of myself as anti-union in the recent past, but the more I learn on these forums (wading through so much of the other stuff) is the details of the industry and what a good union can do for you and your job security. My step-father until recently was a self-employed business man providing a service to Insurance companies. All the sudden - these national insurance companies are undercutting each other and paying far below stadard (fair) rates for their services - using much less qualified people. When he turned down a job - another company was right there to step in at that lower bid and making it harder for the real professionals to get their due pay. Obviously I saw a great similarity here.
I wouldn't want to work for FLOPS. It doesn't sound like a good place to work to be sure. Something is wrong with that company - but i don't know what it is.
Thanks for the insight and the helpful posts.
USMCFLYR
"and a couple years ago I was about as anti-union a guy as you could find, but having seen how management can operate, even at good companies, I can now say I get it. It's not pretty, it's just business, think of it as a new set of ROE. We now have contracts, to keep both sides straight, the only thing management understands is $, it's not personal, it's just business. "
I have thought of myself as anti-union in the recent past, but the more I learn on these forums (wading through so much of the other stuff) is the details of the industry and what a good union can do for you and your job security. My step-father until recently was a self-employed business man providing a service to Insurance companies. All the sudden - these national insurance companies are undercutting each other and paying far below stadard (fair) rates for their services - using much less qualified people. When he turned down a job - another company was right there to step in at that lower bid and making it harder for the real professionals to get their due pay. Obviously I saw a great similarity here.
I wouldn't want to work for FLOPS. It doesn't sound like a good place to work to be sure. Something is wrong with that company - but i don't know what it is.
Thanks for the insight and the helpful posts.
USMCFLYR
05-27-2008, 11:00 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
B727DRVR -
"The 70 hostages at Flight Options were not laid off, they were terminated: An important distinction in Civilian aviation and a potential "kiss-of-death" for your resume. "
After I read some of the other posts on here I realized that I was misreading a key element that you mention here: termination vice furloughed; and we haven't even touched on "laid-off" yet
"So here's my question, why would you or anyone want to go to a place that just laid off 70 fellow pilots (which they didn't... They terminated them!)? Obviously, they don't value their employees enough to furlough them and 70 pilots is over 12 percent of their pilot list, I believe.. I find it very improbable that 12 percent of the pilots are that bad with today's standards. How did they get through training, then, if they performed so poorly?
With the current management in place, Flight Options is not a place I would want to go. Now if they did "lay off" or terminate 70 pilots and TexasPilot still wanted to go there to take his/her chances, I don't think that would make him/her a scab since no picket line was involved.... I just think that it would be poor judgement to assume that he would fly, perform, or fare any better than the 70 fallen pilots before him. Going to a place that eats its own is questionable judgement at best. "
I completely agree with you on this point. I do think that it would show a lack of judgement to work for this company at the current time. The original intention of my post was to make sure that someone who went to work for a company that had laid-off pilots or been forced to furlough pilots in hard economic times were not labeled as scabs; or at least I could hope to understand the industry mind set if that were indeed the case.
You and SabreDriver make excellent, well thought out points in your posts and those of us who are still learning about this whole professional aviation career are thankful
USMCFLYR
"fantastic military pilot networking from Marine Corps aviation that you will never have to work at a company like I described to gain time or experience and go right to the company of your choice."
PS. OH....there is a Marine mafia out there waiting to get me my dream job?
Feel free to contact me at ANY time! I'm just starting to learn about this whole networking business. Sure wish I had kept better track of the guys who got out during my career!
"The 70 hostages at Flight Options were not laid off, they were terminated: An important distinction in Civilian aviation and a potential "kiss-of-death" for your resume. "
After I read some of the other posts on here I realized that I was misreading a key element that you mention here: termination vice furloughed; and we haven't even touched on "laid-off" yet
"So here's my question, why would you or anyone want to go to a place that just laid off 70 fellow pilots (which they didn't... They terminated them!)? Obviously, they don't value their employees enough to furlough them and 70 pilots is over 12 percent of their pilot list, I believe.. I find it very improbable that 12 percent of the pilots are that bad with today's standards. How did they get through training, then, if they performed so poorly?
With the current management in place, Flight Options is not a place I would want to go. Now if they did "lay off" or terminate 70 pilots and TexasPilot still wanted to go there to take his/her chances, I don't think that would make him/her a scab since no picket line was involved.... I just think that it would be poor judgement to assume that he would fly, perform, or fare any better than the 70 fallen pilots before him. Going to a place that eats its own is questionable judgement at best. "
I completely agree with you on this point. I do think that it would show a lack of judgement to work for this company at the current time. The original intention of my post was to make sure that someone who went to work for a company that had laid-off pilots or been forced to furlough pilots in hard economic times were not labeled as scabs; or at least I could hope to understand the industry mind set if that were indeed the case.
You and SabreDriver make excellent, well thought out points in your posts and those of us who are still learning about this whole professional aviation career are thankful
USMCFLYR
"fantastic military pilot networking from Marine Corps aviation that you will never have to work at a company like I described to gain time or experience and go right to the company of your choice."
PS. OH....there is a Marine mafia out there waiting to get me my dream job?
Feel free to contact me at ANY time! I'm just starting to learn about this whole networking business. Sure wish I had kept better track of the guys who got out during my career!
05-28-2008, 06:09 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 777, sofa
Posts: 1,183
texaspilot's differences with most of us are based a conceptual difference of how being an airline pilot works. He believes we should all be graded on our individual merits. A more skilled pilot should be more rewarded. A simple and fair concept. Just like professional athletics, or sales, or most any other profession.
Except it doesn't work that way. And I don't think it should. Who would want to fly with the worst rated pilot in the company? Who would allow their children on that plane?
Texas, instead of merit, we set a uniform high standard. Everyone flying is at least this good. Therefore everyone is an interchangeable part. You really are no different to the chief pilot, or crew scheduling, or your passengers than anybody else who has also demonstrated the same high standards. Skill above that level is not required.
Except it doesn't work that way. And I don't think it should. Who would want to fly with the worst rated pilot in the company? Who would allow their children on that plane?
Texas, instead of merit, we set a uniform high standard. Everyone flying is at least this good. Therefore everyone is an interchangeable part. You really are no different to the chief pilot, or crew scheduling, or your passengers than anybody else who has also demonstrated the same high standards. Skill above that level is not required.
05-28-2008, 02:31 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by DaRaiders
So, you've never heard of FedEx?
Yes - I've heard - and it seems to have worked out for quite a few - but right now I'm not looking. Always the wrong time or the wrong place
USMCFLYR
05-28-2008, 03:01 PM
#49
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
I really appreciate your constructive criticism. I do want you to know that I never implied doing anything illegal to better myself. I would never perform an illegal act to better my career.
As far as the butt kissing and politicking, I see no problem with that. It happens everyday in corporate America. People do not become CEO's of companies without a little politics. If I need to fly an extra leg or two to show my committment to the company, no problem. I might get rewarded later.
I have a strive the acheive goals and feel accomplishment for attaining them. I love to fly airplanes. I want to be in aviation the rest of my life. I just want to advance based on my hard work and not my time in service. For example, I commute, and it stinks. I can't go to work for someone in DFW, say, American Eagle, without losing money. Back to year one pay. If it were any other job, I could apply and negotiate my salary. When I went to work for a telecom company back before my aviation career, I went in at a higher pay based on my qualifications. I was brand new at the company, but still made more than most people there for the same position, despite those individuals being at the company longer.Thats how it should be everywhere.
As far as the butt kissing and politicking, I see no problem with that. It happens everyday in corporate America. People do not become CEO's of companies without a little politics. If I need to fly an extra leg or two to show my committment to the company, no problem. I might get rewarded later.
I have a strive the acheive goals and feel accomplishment for attaining them. I love to fly airplanes. I want to be in aviation the rest of my life. I just want to advance based on my hard work and not my time in service. For example, I commute, and it stinks. I can't go to work for someone in DFW, say, American Eagle, without losing money. Back to year one pay. If it were any other job, I could apply and negotiate my salary. When I went to work for a telecom company back before my aviation career, I went in at a higher pay based on my qualifications. I was brand new at the company, but still made more than most people there for the same position, despite those individuals being at the company longer.Thats how it should be everywhere.
Your attitude about workplace politics is a little out of line with the way most airline pilots thinks, but oh well. Personally I gravitated out of corporate america because of that atmosphere.
I am with you on hard work and motivation...it has worked quite well for me so far. It usually pays off, and it would be nice if it payed off consistently in aviation.
However...the problem in aviation is HOW do you identify and reward performance? It's a tough nut to crack, because it's VERY hard to measure objectively at a large flight operation.
The most important tasks we have to perform are negatives: DON'T go off the runway, don't break FAR's, don't come to work drunk, don't be late for your show, etc. You either do these things, or you do not do these things, and there's no gray area in between. Obviously most pilots do NOT do these things and those that do, don't last long.
About the only thing we do have some control over is on-time performance...but on-time pressure can (and does) lead to safety omissions.
Most industry observers can probably agree that on-time financial bonuses, applied consistently (and with a safety emphasis) can work...see SWA.
But history has shown that any non-seniority system at a large operation will degenerate into a festival of butt-kissing and back-stabbing. Not a pleasant work environment for anyone...and after you get a family and some longevity, those kind of games get very old. When you have a young child at home, it's no longer so easy to launch into a cloud deck with that WAI valve stuck shut.
The seniority system really is the best solution for our industry...they already tried the other way about 70 years ago. You will com eto understand this after you get enough time under your belt (and I don't mean flight time).
But if you feel that strongly, you should REALLY try to get a job at a corporate flight dept where everyone knows everybody else, and there is a group dynamic. In that environment, when you bend over for the company, they will at least take note of it...unlike the airlines, where crew scheduling will not even remember that you did them a favor this morning
05-28-2008, 09:42 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 767 captain
Posts: 2,696
Originally Posted by texaspilot76
I am in control of my career.
Last edited by 767pilot; 05-28-2008 at 09:53 PM.
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