AOPA Does Not Support Pilots but Big Business
10-07-2009, 05:41 AM
#11
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Position: NJA CE680 terminated
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Navajo's point is the one that will cause you problems. If he is paying you( sounds like it from your original post) to use your airplane, you have just moved into commercial ops. You are no longer just in part 61. That would be true if he supplied the plane. The instruction is not the problem, it's renting your plane.
10-07-2009, 05:43 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by Learguy
I agree with Navajo on this. And yes, I used to own a couple of FBO's in the past.
While I think you teaching your friend is a nice thing to do, you are using all of the services that the FBO's are ultimatly paying for, and providing little to support those services.
It used to irk me to no end when the "I'm just an independent trying to teach the joy of flight" guy would march into the FBO, take over the flight planing room, spread all his stuff around and spend 45 minutes giving ground instruction. Oh yeah, drink the coffee and eat the popcorn, and then loudly proclaim they would do practice landings at the next airport because gas was 3 cents cheaper.
All the while I would have all the expenses of a couple of planes sitting on the ramp, and a CFI looking for a bit of protection.
How about approaching the FBO, presenting your credentials, and asking if you could rent one of their aircraft to teach your friend? Might be a win-win, and you can make new friends doing it?
While I think you teaching your friend is a nice thing to do, you are using all of the services that the FBO's are ultimatly paying for, and providing little to support those services.
It used to irk me to no end when the "I'm just an independent trying to teach the joy of flight" guy would march into the FBO, take over the flight planing room, spread all his stuff around and spend 45 minutes giving ground instruction. Oh yeah, drink the coffee and eat the popcorn, and then loudly proclaim they would do practice landings at the next airport because gas was 3 cents cheaper.
All the while I would have all the expenses of a couple of planes sitting on the ramp, and a CFI looking for a bit of protection.
How about approaching the FBO, presenting your credentials, and asking if you could rent one of their aircraft to teach your friend? Might be a win-win, and you can make new friends doing it?
10-07-2009, 05:49 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by Sailaway
Navajo's point is the one that will cause you problems. If he is paying you( sounds like it from your original post) to use your airplane, you have just moved into commercial ops. You are no longer just in part 61. That would be true if he supplied the plane. The instruction is not the problem, it's renting your plane.
10-07-2009, 06:12 AM
#14
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I was a chief flight instructor at a flight school located on an airport that had these silly rules about "rogue" instructors not affiliated with the ONLY flight school on the airport - the one I ran. I had no problem with the one or two individuals who taught their friends/family/the lone student who didn't want to pay us. We still made a profit, small that it was, and managed just fine. Even got a few students from the "rogue" instructor when he was too busy. Competition is just fine and if all you're going to do is train your friend, you truly are not competition to the "airport sanctioned" flight training facilities.
10-07-2009, 07:24 AM
#15
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I had a small one airplane flight school at an airport and did everything I was told to do. I even rented a small office to teach out of. I got so much hassle from everyone from the airport to the local city, I shut down, walked away, and never even renewed my CFI. I have 4200 hours as instructor and I don't miss it; that is the crap I had to put up with, not the instructing. I liked instructing, but I don't miss the pay.
10-08-2009, 07:32 AM
#16
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bigshiny,
You missed my point. I was not talking about 121, 135 or 141. Anytime you rent your plane, for any purpose, that is commercial by definition. As Navajo said, check with your insurance company and (if you dare) the local GADO for their take. Not saying you cannot teach in your own plane, just cover your bases first. The FBO or Flight School are not what you need to be concerned about.
You missed my point. I was not talking about 121, 135 or 141. Anytime you rent your plane, for any purpose, that is commercial by definition. As Navajo said, check with your insurance company and (if you dare) the local GADO for their take. Not saying you cannot teach in your own plane, just cover your bases first. The FBO or Flight School are not what you need to be concerned about.
10-08-2009, 09:25 AM
#17
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I think the main point of the OP was that AOPA was not in support of him teaching his freind to fly. That's baffling.
How is this not operated under 61 rules? Am I missing something? He's a commercial/ATP with a CFI, he can charge whatever he wants to his friend. Just teach and let the cards fall. That airport competition stuff is serious crap. Give me a break, now I'm all flustered. AOPA...
How is this not operated under 61 rules? Am I missing something? He's a commercial/ATP with a CFI, he can charge whatever he wants to his friend. Just teach and let the cards fall. That airport competition stuff is serious crap. Give me a break, now I'm all flustered. AOPA...
10-08-2009, 09:30 AM
#18
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Teaching is a commercial operation. The FAA just allows it under FAR part 91. You are running a commercial operation out of the airport and therefore come under the limitations of the airport. Most airports set minimum standards for commercial operators. In the salad days of GA, many airports would look the other way. In these tight times, it is much harder to hide.
Let me pay devils adocate. Why doesn't your friend learn to fly at the FBO? Why don't you approach the FBO and work out a deal to teach your friend? While I understand that it may cost more, it will help keep the FBO open. In this day and age, most FBO's are marginal operations at best. AOPA wants to keep these businesses in business so that their services will be available to its members.
Let me pay devils adocate. Why doesn't your friend learn to fly at the FBO? Why don't you approach the FBO and work out a deal to teach your friend? While I understand that it may cost more, it will help keep the FBO open. In this day and age, most FBO's are marginal operations at best. AOPA wants to keep these businesses in business so that their services will be available to its members.
10-08-2009, 10:54 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by BoilerUP
You asked the airport board if you could teach someone to fly in your own airplane???
Just teach your friend and be done with it...
Just teach your friend and be done with it...
Exactly, if he can't figure that out, I'm sure what kind of teacher he'll be.
10-08-2009, 11:04 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by bigshinyjet
Sorry but there is no such thing as "Commercial Ops". There is part 61, 91, 121, 135, 141 and so on. Just because you rent a plane for flight instruction does not mean all of a sudden you are a 135 carrier. It simply means inspections change, you need a business license, and you need to pay taxes for income. Otherwise you would have to shut down 99% of the flight schools in the United States leaving open only the 141 schools.
That is not what he is saying. As soon as you are renting the airplane it becomes a commercial operation. You will need 100 hour inspections in addition to the annual inspection.... among other things like insurance and even the financing if there is still a note on his plane... alot changes. Of course, if he is only going to teach this one student as it sounds like he is, he can call his insurance company and name him as a second insured... should only add a few hundred bucks to the policy. I did that with one of my planes a few years ago. Commmerical flight instruction insurance was $7600 for a skyhawk... adding one names student pilot to the existing policy was about $400 additional. Go teach the guy.
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