AOPA Does Not Support Pilots but Big Business
10-08-2009, 04:59 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,575
As long as ANY money is exchanged, it is a "commercial" operation. Even if you operate at a loss. Cash doesn't make it legal, but it may make it easier to not get caught. I don't see any reason to instruct anywhere, anyway these days. I know airline pilots that go to court because of someone they instructed 10 years ago screwed up in a plane. I let my CFI stuff expire.
10-08-2009, 05:37 PM
#32
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Hey guys,
I have read all of your posts and I appreciate most all of your input. I am glad to have raised some awareness of rules that we Instructor Pilots do not typically think of.
Some updates:
Talked to the port today and although they said I could not instruct out of a T Hangar or off of a Tie down they did say I could teach my friend as long as no money changes hands. I can however share expenses and I will determine how expensive it is to share. It is not like renting...my expenses include insurance, p & i, fuel, maintenance, etc. They also said they are going to keep my info and let me know as soon as I can get an office on the field but no promises.
I talked to a couple of the operators on the field and they may let me piggyback on one of them since they already have facilities. That is if I feel like starting a full blown flight school.
All in all I am going to make it happen. I am still bugged by all of these extra rules in aviation and think they do more bad than good. I also feel AOPA should be against this and do something about it to promote Aviation. I thing AOPA does somethings to help Aviation but this is a big item that needs there attention.
Once again thanks for all the input!!!
I have read all of your posts and I appreciate most all of your input. I am glad to have raised some awareness of rules that we Instructor Pilots do not typically think of.
Some updates:
Talked to the port today and although they said I could not instruct out of a T Hangar or off of a Tie down they did say I could teach my friend as long as no money changes hands. I can however share expenses and I will determine how expensive it is to share. It is not like renting...my expenses include insurance, p & i, fuel, maintenance, etc. They also said they are going to keep my info and let me know as soon as I can get an office on the field but no promises.
I talked to a couple of the operators on the field and they may let me piggyback on one of them since they already have facilities. That is if I feel like starting a full blown flight school.
All in all I am going to make it happen. I am still bugged by all of these extra rules in aviation and think they do more bad than good. I also feel AOPA should be against this and do something about it to promote Aviation. I thing AOPA does somethings to help Aviation but this is a big item that needs there attention.
Once again thanks for all the input!!!
10-08-2009, 05:53 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 717 FO >>>> 737 FO
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by bigshinyjet
.......The joy of flying has been replaced by something I do not understand.
I know you're old enough to know what I'm talkin' about!! - BCD
10-09-2009, 10:11 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Shinyjet,
I've been an AOPA member for 14 years now but they really ticked me off a year ago in an unrelated matter (If you had an AOPA credit card from Bank of America your rate went from 5% to 11% with no decrease in income or credit drop. They just decided to raise it. I let AOPA know--since they get a kickback--and they could care less. I cancelled the card.)
When I had a school in MI they were very strict about independent instructors. The state would even come out and inspect your "facilities". Here in the Republic of Texas there's hardly any rules barring the practice. I considered doing the same thing (independent) in my 152 however; the insurance quote I got for open training and rental was close to $5000 a year...all this under the "we're now offering better rates for instructors who own aircraft to stimulate interest in flying and student starts." For my wife and I to fly it our insurance quote was $600 a year.
Good luck and I hope it works out.
I've been an AOPA member for 14 years now but they really ticked me off a year ago in an unrelated matter (If you had an AOPA credit card from Bank of America your rate went from 5% to 11% with no decrease in income or credit drop. They just decided to raise it. I let AOPA know--since they get a kickback--and they could care less. I cancelled the card.)
When I had a school in MI they were very strict about independent instructors. The state would even come out and inspect your "facilities". Here in the Republic of Texas there's hardly any rules barring the practice. I considered doing the same thing (independent) in my 152 however; the insurance quote I got for open training and rental was close to $5000 a year...all this under the "we're now offering better rates for instructors who own aircraft to stimulate interest in flying and student starts." For my wife and I to fly it our insurance quote was $600 a year.
Good luck and I hope it works out.
10-10-2009, 02:01 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by AKfreighter
Interesing stuff. I'm aware of the FARs and what constitutes a commercial op. I just never thought of an airport authority regulating this kind of minutia (ie a guy teaching his friend to fly and getting paid for it). I didn't read the attachments to his posts, so I'm not fully informed on this matter. (How could you tell?) However, this makes me wonder about the airfields around me. Guess this another example of why I'm just a pilot.
10-10-2009, 02:05 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by bigshinyjet
Hey guys,
I have read all of your posts and I appreciate most all of your input. I am glad to have raised some awareness of rules that we Instructor Pilots do not typically think of.
Some updates:
Talked to the port today and although they said I could not instruct out of a T Hangar or off of a Tie down they did say I could teach my friend as long as no money changes hands. I can however share expenses and I will determine how expensive it is to share. It is not like renting...my expenses include insurance, p & i, fuel, maintenance, etc. They also said they are going to keep my info and let me know as soon as I can get an office on the field but no promises.
I talked to a couple of the operators on the field and they may let me piggyback on one of them since they already have facilities. That is if I feel like starting a full blown flight school.
All in all I am going to make it happen. I am still bugged by all of these extra rules in aviation and think they do more bad than good. I also feel AOPA should be against this and do something about it to promote Aviation. I thing AOPA does somethings to help Aviation but this is a big item that needs there attention.
Once again thanks for all the input!!!
I have read all of your posts and I appreciate most all of your input. I am glad to have raised some awareness of rules that we Instructor Pilots do not typically think of.
Some updates:
Talked to the port today and although they said I could not instruct out of a T Hangar or off of a Tie down they did say I could teach my friend as long as no money changes hands. I can however share expenses and I will determine how expensive it is to share. It is not like renting...my expenses include insurance, p & i, fuel, maintenance, etc. They also said they are going to keep my info and let me know as soon as I can get an office on the field but no promises.
I talked to a couple of the operators on the field and they may let me piggyback on one of them since they already have facilities. That is if I feel like starting a full blown flight school.
All in all I am going to make it happen. I am still bugged by all of these extra rules in aviation and think they do more bad than good. I also feel AOPA should be against this and do something about it to promote Aviation. I thing AOPA does somethings to help Aviation but this is a big item that needs there attention.
Once again thanks for all the input!!!
Why do you feel that AOPA is wrong in supporting rules that protect what few avaition related business there are left? You are angry with AOPA because it is inconvientient for you, when in fact their position makes perfect sense.
10-10-2009, 03:29 PM
#37
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: CE 750, one of the two up front
Posts: 33
To make this part 61 legal, temporarly sell your airplane to your friend with the understanding that you will buy it back at the end of the training. I don't know the loopholes of this, but you could simply make him a part owner of your plane for the time it takes to complete the training. The cost of the instruction can be factored into the cost of the airplane.
10-10-2009, 05:55 PM
#38
Bracing for Fallacies
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
So many folks around my airport are dying to instruct for peanuts whether or not the instruction is quality/structured/safe/legal. This erodes a decent pay structure necessary for a continuity of instruction and quality airplanes.
For example, we as a flight school were considering rate changes to allow us to update our fleet of aircraft and training materials.
Of course we can hardly raise rates for fear of individuals who try to lure our students away with a promise of cheaper rates. So the old planes will soldier on and pilot pay remains in the toilet.
Also--Do not, I repeat, do not confuse respectable competition with just plain undercutting somebody. There IS a difference.
Oh yeah, and freelancing whilst essentially setting up shop in somebody's FBO is classy.
For example, we as a flight school were considering rate changes to allow us to update our fleet of aircraft and training materials.
Of course we can hardly raise rates for fear of individuals who try to lure our students away with a promise of cheaper rates. So the old planes will soldier on and pilot pay remains in the toilet.
Also--Do not, I repeat, do not confuse respectable competition with just plain undercutting somebody. There IS a difference.
Oh yeah, and freelancing whilst essentially setting up shop in somebody's FBO is classy.
10-12-2009, 09:13 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Posts: 1,602
Pay for Instructors
I've always advocated decent pay for instructors. Ten years ago I paid my instructors $25 an hour--flight & ground. It was also "contact time". If you started at 10am you got paid from 10am on. Student no shows and late students....the instructor got paid. And the student got billed.
If I failed to show up for a meeting with my CPA, attorney, or personal trainer....same theory so why should it not be the case for flight instruction? I considered my instructors professionals and mandated they be treated accordingly. If someone questions the cost of dual here in DFW I hand them a list of hourly charges for other service providers: Personal trainer $75, Golf instructor $125, CPA $125, closet organizer $55, interior designer $75, and the latest for the holiday season---Christmas Party Santa $150. These charges are per hour!
What's it worth for me to keep you alive during the first five hours and to provide you with the skills you'll use for the rest of your life in an aircraft?
No questions about the dual rate after that!
If I failed to show up for a meeting with my CPA, attorney, or personal trainer....same theory so why should it not be the case for flight instruction? I considered my instructors professionals and mandated they be treated accordingly. If someone questions the cost of dual here in DFW I hand them a list of hourly charges for other service providers: Personal trainer $75, Golf instructor $125, CPA $125, closet organizer $55, interior designer $75, and the latest for the holiday season---Christmas Party Santa $150. These charges are per hour!
What's it worth for me to keep you alive during the first five hours and to provide you with the skills you'll use for the rest of your life in an aircraft?
No questions about the dual rate after that!
10-12-2009, 10:01 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dream Job
Posts: 403
I wish all flight school owners thought like this.
Originally Posted by Std Deviation
I've always advocated decent pay for instructors. Ten years ago I paid my instructors $25 an hour--flight & ground. It was also "contact time". If you started at 10am you got paid from 10am on. Student no shows and late students....the instructor got paid. And the student got billed.
If I failed to show up for a meeting with my CPA, attorney, or personal trainer....same theory so why should it not be the case for flight instruction? I considered my instructors professionals and mandated they be treated accordingly. If someone questions the cost of dual here in DFW I hand them a list of hourly charges for other service providers: Personal trainer $75, Golf instructor $125, CPA $125, closet organizer $55, interior designer $75, and the latest for the holiday season---Christmas Party Santa $150. These charges are per hour!
What's it worth for me to keep you alive during the first five hours and to provide you with the skills you'll use for the rest of your life in an aircraft?
No questions about the dual rate after that!
If I failed to show up for a meeting with my CPA, attorney, or personal trainer....same theory so why should it not be the case for flight instruction? I considered my instructors professionals and mandated they be treated accordingly. If someone questions the cost of dual here in DFW I hand them a list of hourly charges for other service providers: Personal trainer $75, Golf instructor $125, CPA $125, closet organizer $55, interior designer $75, and the latest for the holiday season---Christmas Party Santa $150. These charges are per hour!
What's it worth for me to keep you alive during the first five hours and to provide you with the skills you'll use for the rest of your life in an aircraft?
No questions about the dual rate after that!
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