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Old 10-23-2009, 06:32 PM   #11  
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Originally Posted by GlasssPilot View Post
We all follow the rules. 121 has a limit of 8 hours between rest periods. A rest period is a minimum of 8 hours. Doing that you could fly 8 hours, have 8 hours off and that a total of 16. They could put you back on for another 8, right? No, the FAA says if that's what the company wants to do then they have to give you compensitory rest. That means extra rest for hours flown over 8 in a 24 hour period and must be given and completed within the 24 hours PRECEDING the completion of that rest. Remember, it's always a look back. You go to the end of your SCHEDULED day and look back 24 hours...do you have the required rest? Yes...go fly. No...you can't go fly.


So the 135 guys can fly up to 10 hours sched. But they get 10 hours rest instead of the 9 reducible to 8 (with compensatory rest to be completed within 24). Also, the 10 flight time restriction can be bumped up due to unforeseen issues like weather and late pax but then they get more rest.

By the way, that has always been a bit of an issue. Part 91k shares operational control with the passenger since they are an owner. That's why they can tap the pilot on the shoulder and divert the flight. So here's the sticky bit. If the owner (pax) has operational control...then how can that be considered an "unforeseen" issue able to extend a duty day?

Good luck out there.
Very informative, thanks.
If a fractional company doesn't provide charter services, they only need to follow Part 91K, or both 135 and 91K?
I guess that Part 135 has more strict rules than Part 91?

Last edited by xfzz; 10-23-2009 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:45 PM   #12  
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Oh boy.

The rules are black and white. Part 121 and Part 135 are printed in the same book and on the same paper (at least they used to be before the .pdf was invented). They are not intentionally violated, but rather the exceptions as referenced in the reg are applied, i.e. extenuating circumstances beyond operator's control. Where are you finding this 12 hour number? If a Pt. 121 crew flies in excess of 12 hours due to circumstances not in their control they are given 16 hours of compensatory rest. This is not a violation of the reg, rather completely in compliance with the exceptions as published. Also you must look at the type of operation; scheduled, on-demand, supplemental. Are we talking a regularly scheduled cargo run or a on-call charter flight? different deal.


Maybe you can provide more info about your graduate study. What are you trying to identify? What is your thesis statement? Bottom line we fly a lot and sleep little and train regularly for it.

Once you think you've figured it out go talk with a local FSDO POI, then you'll really be confused and chasing ideas you can't find referenced in any publication! Good luck.
I shouldn't say "violations". I meant "exceptions", as you pointed out. What I was trying to do is to have a mathematical model that can produce a crew schedule, that is as close to real-world-feasibility as possible. Because the real world rules are complicated, and the model can't handle them all together. One way to do it is to use some rules in the model, and then manually modify the produced schedule to make sure other rules. The subject is the fractional program (only fractional, no charter). So I try to understand all rules first, and then put a set of rules into the model such that, the model will produce a schedule that requires the minimum manual adjustment afterwards. It's not like to try not to follow the rules or break the law or anything like that. I should say this in my first post, but just too lazy to type all that. In any case, all your feedbacks are greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:44 PM   #13  
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Very informative, thanks.
If a fractional company doesn't provide charter services, they only need to follow Part 91K, or both 135 and 91K?
I guess that Part 135 has more strict rules than Part 91?
There are no rest rules for straight 91.

Rest rules for 91K and 135 are virtually identical.

Most fractional operators utilize some sort of "Jet Card" program which falls under the jurisdiction of Part 135 while conducting those flights.
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Old 10-24-2009, 11:01 AM   #14  
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Originally Posted by Spacemann Splif View Post
His next question will be "How long since you stopped beating your wife?"
Yeah, no kidding! That's exactly the reaction I felt when he initially asked that question...
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:55 PM   #15  
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What can get tricky is when you have your required 10 hr rest period between 2 calendar days, but day 1 started flying late in the day, day 2 started early. I had to delay my 3rd leg of the day (day 2) this week, because I would have exceeded the 10 hrs by 40 minutes, and it would have been scheduled that way, so no exception allowed (even with the 11 hrs compensatory allowed under 135.267).

Day 1: Started flying 1600local, flew 4.4 hrs. Dutied off
Day 2: Started flying 0830local: Leg 1, flew 3.9.
Quick turn for Customs.
Leg 2, flew 1.3.
Now it's 1430local, total flight in past 22.5 hrs is 9.6. Had a 1500local scheduled 1.5 hr flight, had to wait to depart since it was "scheduled", and not "over 10 due to unforeseen circumstances".

Last edited by mainiac; 10-27-2009 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:37 PM   #16  
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I shouldn't say "violations". I meant "exceptions", as you pointed out. What I was trying to do is to have a mathematical model that can produce a crew schedule, that is as close to real-world-feasibility as possible. Because the real world rules are complicated, and the model can't handle them all together. One way to do it is to use some rules in the model, and then manually modify the produced schedule to make sure other rules. The subject is the fractional program (only fractional, no charter). So I try to understand all rules first, and then put a set of rules into the model such that, the model will produce a schedule that requires the minimum manual adjustment afterwards. It's not like to try not to follow the rules or break the law or anything like that. I should say this in my first post, but just too lazy to type all that. In any case, all your feedbacks are greatly appreciated.
Not in the fractional business but. You need to read carefully when reading regs, Scheduled is different than Actual in the way the rules are applied. If the carrier Schedules a flight within the regs but it routinely Actually exceeds the shedule the carrier may be restricted from using the scheduled times for that flight, this may vary by POI, most often you will find that the flight must meet Schedule times just 50% of the flights.
Good luck
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