Laughable Bravado
11-24-2018, 07:44 AM
#201
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
Originally Posted by Mugatu
I’ll step in for ReserveCA since management is having fun sh!tting on him...
Here’s one... New tax law. That alone CLEARLY makes this AIP obsolete.
Pay us 150 signing bonus, 270hr and 15% DC now with all other things being equal and Indigo is STILL getting a huge bargain.
So how much did Biffle make today??? Bargain rate? Bottom of the barrel like this AIP?
Here’s one... New tax law. That alone CLEARLY makes this AIP obsolete.
Pay us 150 signing bonus, 270hr and 15% DC now with all other things being equal and Indigo is STILL getting a huge bargain.
So how much did Biffle make today??? Bargain rate? Bottom of the barrel like this AIP?
I have been refraining from posting as the atmosphere here is just getting disgusting. Motorboatin, Todd, DENpilot...they are as bad if not worse than Reserve, V1, and yourself. Back and forth, back and forth, the same things with no substance. It's a striking image of what is going on with this country right now. So I would say unlike what Chinook said in the negotiations thread that not only did Indigo do great to pit us against each other, they used the political environment of divisiveness that currently exists to multiply the effect.
Mugatu, in the past we've often exposed therapysession as management. That poster typically acted like management, look at them now, they certainly are not acting this way. Motorboatin though, appears to be Nides himself. Either that or someone like KG, and many know his reputation...and it's not good.
What I quoted you though is these people asked for a specific plan on how to get to TA2 and how to get more, not just what we would request. So we'd start off by:
1. Voting No, showing solidarity like the strike vote and getting the No percentage as high as possible. Show the company that this is a slap in the face and is in no way enough
2. At this point we would have to replace the MEC and NC, this would take time probably a 3 month minimum.
3. This is where opinions divulge...time.
In my opinion there is no good reason for the company to give us a contract at all. Have more of a memory than a goldfish I'm thinking about this entire process, not just last week. The company has stalled this out as much as they have wanted, they have wronged us by showing little regard for the contract we have and by slighting us by taking vacations. It is this that makes me of the opinion that the company has some reason why they need us to have a new contract. They aren't giving us 40-50% increases out of the goodness of their hearts, they need it and they will give the minimum they can. I don't fault them for this, they are trying to make money and the more you give the less you make. Pretty simple math really.
So time, how much time? That is were the calculators come in, this that and that and the other thing. Speculate this, worry about that. How long do we want to wait. The union when I spoke to them is under the opinion that if we vote no Indigo will simply start sending the planes elsewhere. Would they? Where? Wizz? Volaris? I don't think so, I think Frontier is their biggest cash cow and they want it to grow. The bigger it gets the more they make, Franke has been in this airline game for a LONG time. The airline he started, America West, is now the largest airline in the world. America West bought US Air, took US Air name, US Air (AW) bought American. Simplified but correct in terms of controlling interests. Franke is not leaving the airline world, and he doesn't have too many years left. So again, the company came to the table because they want this done. The time it would take for us to get back to the table after voting it down along with a list of unified demands for what we would need to accept an agreement and this would certainly be done within 6 months to 1 year of voting down. The only reason I'm certain is because this is inarguably the most vicious management team and they would not give us a dime if they didn't need to. The fact that they are willing to give as much as they are is enough evidence for me to know that they will come up to something much more acceptable, and be worth the wait. This is not greed, this is understanding what we as professional pilots are worth and not accepting the bottom dollar.
4. Unity, sticking together until we actually have something that brings us up to average.
Their really isn't anything else a plan, its the same thing we've done so far to get us here, we just have to keep going a little longer. We won't, but it would be worth it in the end if we did.
We've got a full house, they have a pair of tens. At least make them have two pair before we decide to fold.
11-24-2018, 10:15 AM
#202
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 83
Originally Posted by Gary et al
I have been refraining from posting as the atmosphere here is just getting disgusting. Motorboatin, Todd, DENpilot...they are as bad if not worse than Reserve, V1, and yourself. Back and forth, back and forth, the same things with no substance. It's a striking image of what is going on with this country right now. So I would say unlike what Chinook said in the negotiations thread that not only did Indigo do great to pit us against each other, they used the political environment of divisiveness that currently exists to multiply the effect.
Mugatu, in the past we've often exposed therapysession as management. That poster typically acted like management, look at them now, they certainly are not acting this way. Motorboatin though, appears to be Nides himself. Either that or someone like KG, and many know his reputation...and it's not good.
What I quoted you though is these people asked for a specific plan on how to get to TA2 and how to get more, not just what we would request. So we'd start off by:
1. Voting No, showing solidarity like the strike vote and getting the No percentage as high as possible. Show the company that this is a slap in the face and is in no way enough
2. At this point we would have to replace the MEC and NC, this would take time probably a 3 month minimum.
3. This is where opinions divulge...time.
So again, the company came to the table because they want this done. The time it would take for us to get back to the table after voting it down along with a list of unified demands for what we would need to accept an agreement and this would certainly be done within 6 months to 1 year of voting down. The only reason I'm certain is because this is inarguably the most vicious management team and they would not give us a dime if they didn't need to. The fact that they are willing to give as much as they are is enough evidence for me to know that they will come up to something much more acceptable, and be worth the wait. This is not greed, this is understanding what we as professional pilots are worth and not accepting the bottom dollar.
4. Unity, sticking together until we actually have something that brings us up to average.
Their really isn't anything else a plan, its the same thing we've done so far to get us here, we just have to keep going a little longer. We won't, but it would be worth it in the end if we did.
We've got a full house, they have a pair of tens. At least make them have two pair before we decide to fold.
Mugatu, in the past we've often exposed therapysession as management. That poster typically acted like management, look at them now, they certainly are not acting this way. Motorboatin though, appears to be Nides himself. Either that or someone like KG, and many know his reputation...and it's not good.
What I quoted you though is these people asked for a specific plan on how to get to TA2 and how to get more, not just what we would request. So we'd start off by:
1. Voting No, showing solidarity like the strike vote and getting the No percentage as high as possible. Show the company that this is a slap in the face and is in no way enough
2. At this point we would have to replace the MEC and NC, this would take time probably a 3 month minimum.
3. This is where opinions divulge...time.
In my opinion there is no good reason for the company to give us a contract at all. Have more of a memory than a goldfish I'm thinking about this entire process, not just last week. The company has stalled this out as much as they have wanted, they have wronged us by showing little regard for the contract we have and by slighting us by taking vacations. It is this that makes me of the opinion that the company has some reason why they need us to have a new contract. They aren't giving us 40-50% increases out of the goodness of their hearts, they need it and they will give the minimum they can. I don't fault them for this, they are trying to make money and the more you give the less you make. Pretty simple math really.
So time, how much time? That is were the calculators come in, this that and that and the other thing. Speculate this, worry about that. How long do we want to wait. The union when I spoke to them is under the opinion that if we vote no Indigo will simply start sending the planes elsewhere. Would they? Where? Wizz? Volaris? I don't think so, I think Frontier is their biggest cash cow and they want it to grow. The bigger it gets the more they make, Franke has been in this airline game for a LONG time. The airline he started, America West, is now the largest airline in the world. America West bought US Air, took US Air name, US Air (AW) bought American. Simplified but correct in terms of controlling interests. Franke is not leaving the airline world, and he doesn't have too many years left. So again, the company came to the table because they want this done. The time it would take for us to get back to the table after voting it down along with a list of unified demands for what we would need to accept an agreement and this would certainly be done within 6 months to 1 year of voting down. The only reason I'm certain is because this is inarguably the most vicious management team and they would not give us a dime if they didn't need to. The fact that they are willing to give as much as they are is enough evidence for me to know that they will come up to something much more acceptable, and be worth the wait. This is not greed, this is understanding what we as professional pilots are worth and not accepting the bottom dollar.
4. Unity, sticking together until we actually have something that brings us up to average.
Their really isn't anything else a plan, its the same thing we've done so far to get us here, we just have to keep going a little longer. We won't, but it would be worth it in the end if we did.
We've got a full house, they have a pair of tens. At least make them have two pair before we decide to fold.
11-24-2018, 11:00 AM
#203
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 641
Originally Posted by Gary et al
I have been refraining from posting as the atmosphere here is just getting disgusting. Motorboatin, Todd, DENpilot...they are as bad if not worse than Reserve, V1, and yourself. Back and forth, back and forth, the same things with no substance. It's a striking image of what is going on with this country right now. So I would say unlike what Chinook said in the negotiations thread that not only did Indigo do great to pit us against each other, they used the political environment of divisiveness that currently exists to multiply the effect.
Mugatu, in the past we've often exposed therapysession as management. That poster typically acted like management, look at them now, they certainly are not acting this way. Motorboatin though, appears to be Nides himself. Either that or someone like KG, and many know his reputation...and it's not good.
What I quoted you though is these people asked for a specific plan on how to get to TA2 and how to get more, not just what we would request. So we'd start off by:
1. Voting No, showing solidarity like the strike vote and getting the No percentage as high as possible. Show the company that this is a slap in the face and is in no way enough
2. At this point we would have to replace the MEC and NC, this would take time probably a 3 month minimum.
3. This is where opinions divulge...time.
So again, the company came to the table because they want this done. The time it would take for us to get back to the table after voting it down along with a list of unified demands for what we would need to accept an agreement and this would certainly be done within 6 months to 1 year of voting down. The only reason I'm certain is because this is inarguably the most vicious management team and they would not give us a dime if they didn't need to. The fact that they are willing to give as much as they are is enough evidence for me to know that they will come up to something much more acceptable, and be worth the wait. This is not greed, this is understanding what we as professional pilots are worth and not accepting the bottom dollar.
4. Unity, sticking together until we actually have something that brings us up to average.
Their really isn't anything else a plan, its the same thing we've done so far to get us here, we just have to keep going a little longer. We won't, but it would be worth it in the end if we did.
We've got a full house, they have a pair of tens. At least make them have two pair before we decide to fold.
Mugatu, in the past we've often exposed therapysession as management. That poster typically acted like management, look at them now, they certainly are not acting this way. Motorboatin though, appears to be Nides himself. Either that or someone like KG, and many know his reputation...and it's not good.
What I quoted you though is these people asked for a specific plan on how to get to TA2 and how to get more, not just what we would request. So we'd start off by:
1. Voting No, showing solidarity like the strike vote and getting the No percentage as high as possible. Show the company that this is a slap in the face and is in no way enough
2. At this point we would have to replace the MEC and NC, this would take time probably a 3 month minimum.
3. This is where opinions divulge...time.
In my opinion there is no good reason for the company to give us a contract at all. Have more of a memory than a goldfish I'm thinking about this entire process, not just last week. The company has stalled this out as much as they have wanted, they have wronged us by showing little regard for the contract we have and by slighting us by taking vacations. It is this that makes me of the opinion that the company has some reason why they need us to have a new contract. They aren't giving us 40-50% increases out of the goodness of their hearts, they need it and they will give the minimum they can. I don't fault them for this, they are trying to make money and the more you give the less you make. Pretty simple math really.
So time, how much time? That is were the calculators come in, this that and that and the other thing. Speculate this, worry about that. How long do we want to wait. The union when I spoke to them is under the opinion that if we vote no Indigo will simply start sending the planes elsewhere. Would they? Where? Wizz? Volaris? I don't think so, I think Frontier is their biggest cash cow and they want it to grow. The bigger it gets the more they make, Franke has been in this airline game for a LONG time. The airline he started, America West, is now the largest airline in the world. America West bought US Air, took US Air name, US Air (AW) bought American. Simplified but correct in terms of controlling interests. Franke is not leaving the airline world, and he doesn't have too many years left. So again, the company came to the table because they want this done. The time it would take for us to get back to the table after voting it down along with a list of unified demands for what we would need to accept an agreement and this would certainly be done within 6 months to 1 year of voting down. The only reason I'm certain is because this is inarguably the most vicious management team and they would not give us a dime if they didn't need to. The fact that they are willing to give as much as they are is enough evidence for me to know that they will come up to something much more acceptable, and be worth the wait. This is not greed, this is understanding what we as professional pilots are worth and not accepting the bottom dollar.
4. Unity, sticking together until we actually have something that brings us up to average.
Their really isn't anything else a plan, its the same thing we've done so far to get us here, we just have to keep going a little longer. We won't, but it would be worth it in the end if we did.
We've got a full house, they have a pair of tens. At least make them have two pair before we decide to fold.
Very well said! You Sir/Madam are spot on!
11-24-2018, 11:00 AM
#204
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 146
Originally Posted by chinookwinds
Thank you...I couldn’t agree more. This, in my opinion is spot on. I think the best approach, although sounds like an empty room, would be for our reps (the LEC) listen to this pilot group. If their is enough push back on this agreement, it would be in everyones interest to kill this before it goes to a vote. This would be the less risk approach to attempt to correct the some of the areas this agreement lacks. The LEC is our voice, as elected bodies and should take a responsible and neutral stance on this agreement. If there is any risk of this being voted down, it would be better to go back to the table with our current MEC and NC and let the company know this has a high risk of not passing and has to have some improvements.
11-25-2018, 08:35 AM
#205
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Lineholder
Posts: 1,356
Originally Posted by Gary et al
In my opinion there is no good reason for the company to give us a contract at all. Have more of a memory than a goldfish I'm thinking about this entire process, not just last week. The company has stalled this out as much as they have wanted, they have wronged us by showing little regard for the contract we have and by slighting us by taking vacations. It is this that makes me of the opinion that the company has some reason why they need us to have a new contract. They aren't giving us 40-50% increases out of the goodness of their hearts, they need it and they will give the minimum they can. I don't fault them for this, they are trying to make money and the more you give the less you make. Pretty simple math really.
But, the company's behavior is the telling sign...why now? Why a contract at all? What changed from the start of negotiations to a couple of months ago? Did some big time investor make an offer (with conditions about labor costs) that has Indigo now ready to get it done? Now they wanna expand? IPO? What?
Who knows? Honestly, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that NOW THEY ARE READY to actually negotiate. I find it really dificult to believe a equity firm provides it's last - best offer up front. They most certainly have more to offer (albeit probably not much). I'm wondering what that is and how much it equates to.
11-25-2018, 11:00 AM
#206
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,394
Clearly there is a reason they are settling all the labor contracts.
One theory that I recently heard is that the aircraft leasing companies want to see our forecast costs before they lease us hundreds of millions of dollars worth of aircraft. We have 2 new aircraft a month on the way. That's about 80 million in aircraft a month. They want to know we can pay for them before they lease them to us.
That or an IPO is coming. Or both.
Either way, I'm glad this negotiations process didn't take 5 years like Jimmy Nides promised
One theory that I recently heard is that the aircraft leasing companies want to see our forecast costs before they lease us hundreds of millions of dollars worth of aircraft. We have 2 new aircraft a month on the way. That's about 80 million in aircraft a month. They want to know we can pay for them before they lease them to us.
That or an IPO is coming. Or both.
Either way, I'm glad this negotiations process didn't take 5 years like Jimmy Nides promised
11-25-2018, 04:58 PM
#208
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 465
I apologize for all the typo's in my last post.
I should have actually read through it before I pressed submit...and dracir, I know there's a few of us that have posted similar things. We posted that because it is the truth.
I should have actually read through it before I pressed submit...and dracir, I know there's a few of us that have posted similar things. We posted that because it is the truth.
11-25-2018, 09:11 PM
#209
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: doggy style
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by Aero1900
Clearly there is a reason they are settling all the labor contracts.
One theory that I recently heard is that the aircraft leasing companies want to see our forecast costs before they lease us hundreds of millions of dollars worth of aircraft. We have 2 new aircraft a month on the way. That's about 80 million in aircraft a month. They want to know we can pay for them before they lease them to us.
That or an IPO is coming. Or both.
Either way, I'm glad this negotiations process didn't take 5 years like Jimmy Nides promised
One theory that I recently heard is that the aircraft leasing companies want to see our forecast costs before they lease us hundreds of millions of dollars worth of aircraft. We have 2 new aircraft a month on the way. That's about 80 million in aircraft a month. They want to know we can pay for them before they lease them to us.
That or an IPO is coming. Or both.
Either way, I'm glad this negotiations process didn't take 5 years like Jimmy Nides promised
