2024 base discussion....
11-20-2023 | 07:03 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,776
Likes: 63
Does Burger King pay less for labor than 5 Guys? Never worked at either so don't know. Point is that the Frontier experience is for sure chasing a different crowd that is lured in by cheap fares and then the add ons for the less prepared/informed squeeze the profit out. The employees operating the plane though have the same skill, responsibility, and risk that the Delta/UAL/AAL pilots have so let Frontier find other ways to "cheap out" on the airline experience and keep the job of pilot at where it should be, just like every other part 121 carrier in the US. Your "peers" are those doing the same job at all the other airlines. Do the Frontier execs get paid remarkably less than their peers at the other airlines?
11-20-2023 | 07:36 AM
#52
On Reserve
Joined: Apr 2023
Posts: 129
Likes: 113
Does Burger King pay less for labor than 5 Guys? Never worked at either so don't know. Point is that the Frontier experience is for sure chasing a different crowd that is lured in by cheap fares and then the add ons for the less prepared/informed squeeze the profit out. The employees operating the plane though have the same skill, responsibility, and risk that the Delta/UAL/AAL pilots have so let Frontier find other ways to "cheap out" on the airline experience and keep the job of pilot at where it should be, just like every other part 121 carrier in the US. Your "peers" are those doing the same job at all the other airlines. Do the Frontier execs get paid remarkably less than their peers at the other airlines?
All I'm saying is that while the pilot group and union view the legacies as peers, the company may try to convince the mediator that under a primarily day trip model (which doesn't exist at the legacies), our primary peer is Allegiant, and the big bucks at the legacies aren't as relevant at F9 because of the QOL afforded by the day trip model. (Again, I do not buy this argument.)
I'm just speculating that the pivot to day trips could give the company ammo to argue that our primary peer is Allegiant, so legacy contracts are less relevant. I'm not saying that I think this is right; just trying to put the upcoming pivot to day trips in the context of contract negotiations.
11-20-2023 | 07:47 AM
#53
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,986
Likes: 112
From: Lineholder
Does Burger King pay less for labor than 5 Guys? Never worked at either so don't know. Point is that the Frontier experience is for sure chasing a different crowd that is lured in by cheap fares and then the add ons for the less prepared/informed squeeze the profit out. The employees operating the plane though have the same skill, responsibility, and risk that the Delta/UAL/AAL pilots have so let Frontier find other ways to "cheap out" on the airline experience and keep the job of pilot at where it should be, just like every other part 121 carrier in the US. Your "peers" are those doing the same job at all the other airlines. Do the Frontier execs get paid remarkably less than their peers at the other airlines?
I have no idea what the mediator thinks but I can imagine, for our sake, it's much easier to point to MOST other 320/73 drivers in the US make the same money. Again, go look at the contract comparison on the Alpa website. THAT is our industry as far as the union/NC is concerned. Allegiant's CEO is actually paid twice what BB makes (total compensation) but that has a lot to do w/ stock price. BB is paid comensurate w/ Sprit, JB and the like.
https://skift.com/2023/06/13/highest...on%20in%202022.
11-20-2023 | 07:54 AM
#54
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 495
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
A MEDIATOR CANNOT DECIDE THE TERMS OF A CONTRACT.
This is beyond their authority. We go through this confusion every contract cycle. An arbitrator can decide the terms of a contract. We cannot be forced into arbitration. We would have to agree to it, either in our contract or as part of an agreement to bring negotiations to an end. Unions almost never agree to arbitration.
Think of a mediator as kind of a couples therapist. They promote discussion and try to act as an impartial third party to help folks reach an agreement. An arbitrator is basically a hired judge. The parties present their arguments to the arbitrator and the arbitrator makes a decision.
The company frequently does its best to blur the distinction between arbitration and mediation. Heck the union does it, too, when they're trying to wrap up negotiations and are pushing the pilot group to accept a substandard contract.
Don't believe me? Please Google it for yourself.
This is beyond their authority. We go through this confusion every contract cycle. An arbitrator can decide the terms of a contract. We cannot be forced into arbitration. We would have to agree to it, either in our contract or as part of an agreement to bring negotiations to an end. Unions almost never agree to arbitration.
Think of a mediator as kind of a couples therapist. They promote discussion and try to act as an impartial third party to help folks reach an agreement. An arbitrator is basically a hired judge. The parties present their arguments to the arbitrator and the arbitrator makes a decision.
The company frequently does its best to blur the distinction between arbitration and mediation. Heck the union does it, too, when they're trying to wrap up negotiations and are pushing the pilot group to accept a substandard contract.
Don't believe me? Please Google it for yourself.
11-20-2023 | 08:26 AM
#55
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 494
Likes: 3
Does Burger King pay less for labor than 5 Guys? Never worked at either so don't know. Point is that the Frontier experience is for sure chasing a different crowd that is lured in by cheap fares and then the add ons for the less prepared/informed squeeze the profit out. The employees operating the plane though have the same skill, responsibility, and risk that the Delta/UAL/AAL pilots have so let Frontier find other ways to "cheap out" on the airline experience and keep the job of pilot at where it should be, just like every other part 121 carrier in the US. Your "peers" are those doing the same job at all the other airlines. Do the Frontier execs get paid remarkably less than their peers at the other airlines?
11-20-2023 | 09:21 AM
#56
Stirring the pot
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,618
Likes: 66
From: Off reserve 🤫
A MEDIATOR CANNOT DECIDE THE TERMS OF A CONTRACT.
This is beyond their authority. We go through this confusion every contract cycle. An arbitrator can decide the terms of a contract. We cannot be forced into arbitration. We would have to agree to it, either in our contract or as part of an agreement to bring negotiations to an end. Unions almost never agree to arbitration.
Think of a mediator as kind of a couples therapist. They promote discussion and try to act as an impartial third party to help folks reach an agreement. An arbitrator is basically a hired judge. The parties present their arguments to the arbitrator and the arbitrator makes a decision.
The company frequently does its best to blur the distinction between arbitration and mediation. Heck the union does it, too, when they're trying to wrap up negotiations and are pushing the pilot group to accept a substandard contract.
Don't believe me? Please Google it for yourself.
This is beyond their authority. We go through this confusion every contract cycle. An arbitrator can decide the terms of a contract. We cannot be forced into arbitration. We would have to agree to it, either in our contract or as part of an agreement to bring negotiations to an end. Unions almost never agree to arbitration.
Think of a mediator as kind of a couples therapist. They promote discussion and try to act as an impartial third party to help folks reach an agreement. An arbitrator is basically a hired judge. The parties present their arguments to the arbitrator and the arbitrator makes a decision.
The company frequently does its best to blur the distinction between arbitration and mediation. Heck the union does it, too, when they're trying to wrap up negotiations and are pushing the pilot group to accept a substandard contract.
Don't believe me? Please Google it for yourself.
question stands.......
does this group have the "marbles" to strike?
11-20-2023 | 10:24 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,764
Likes: 115
From: 1900D CA
With so many young, 1st airline guys on the seniority list, who knows?
We have so many guys on property who have never even been thru a negotiation before. I hope the union continues to try hard to write informative emails that explain the process
We have so many guys on property who have never even been thru a negotiation before. I hope the union continues to try hard to write informative emails that explain the process
11-20-2023 | 02:14 PM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,764
Likes: 115
From: 1900D CA
I don't at all disagree with you. I was merely speculating/anticipating the kind of argument the company could make when push comes to shove in front of a mediator. I agree that DAL/UAL/AAL should be considered Frontier's peer group. Yes, the pilots up front do the same job everywhere.
All I'm saying is that while the pilot group and union view the legacies as peers, the company may try to convince the mediator that under a primarily day trip model (which doesn't exist at the legacies), our primary peer is Allegiant, and the big bucks at the legacies aren't as relevant at F9 because of the QOL afforded by the day trip model. (Again, I do not buy this argument.)
I'm just speculating that the pivot to day trips could give the company ammo to argue that our primary peer is Allegiant, so legacy contracts are less relevant. I'm not saying that I think this is right; just trying to put the upcoming pivot to day trips in the context of contract negotiations.
All I'm saying is that while the pilot group and union view the legacies as peers, the company may try to convince the mediator that under a primarily day trip model (which doesn't exist at the legacies), our primary peer is Allegiant, and the big bucks at the legacies aren't as relevant at F9 because of the QOL afforded by the day trip model. (Again, I do not buy this argument.)
I'm just speculating that the pivot to day trips could give the company ammo to argue that our primary peer is Allegiant, so legacy contracts are less relevant. I'm not saying that I think this is right; just trying to put the upcoming pivot to day trips in the context of contract negotiations.
I fear that the company is going to use that angle to try and get lower pay rates. The company will think of Allegiant, Breeze and Sprit as our peer group while we will look at UAL/DAL/AA as our peers.
The issue is that Allegiant is already paid less than us and have been in seemingly stalled negotiations a while now. Breeze/ Avelo are kind of an apples to oranges thing as they are start ups without unions. And Spirit agreed to a short term, half raise while the merger is figured out. The peer group issue is one of great concern to me, and something we as pilots and union must fight hard.
Btw, i don't think the day turns issue has much if any bearing on the peer group discussion. The ULCC vs LCC vs Legacy groupings is the real thing. I don't think anyone really cares about the way trips are built. It's the business model that matters
11-20-2023 | 06:18 PM
#59
Thread Starter
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,768
Likes: 28
Puerto Rico revisited...On November 3, BB visited Puerto Rico and met with their Governor and Department of Tourism, at the Governor's mansion.
https://x.com/GovPierluisi/status/17...190628730?s=20
11-20-2023 | 06:35 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,250
Likes: 108
I've brought up the "peer group" issue a couple times in the last year as we head into negotiations.
I fear that the company is going to use that angle to try and get lower pay rates. The company will think of Allegiant, Breeze and Sprit as our peer group while we will look at UAL/DAL/AA as our peers.
The issue is that Allegiant is already paid less than us and have been in seemingly stalled negotiations a while now. Breeze/ Avelo are kind of an apples to oranges thing as they are start ups without unions. And Spirit agreed to a short term, half raise while the merger is figured out. The peer group issue is one of great concern to me, and something we as pilots and union must fight hard.
Btw, i don't think the day turns issue has much if any bearing on the peer group discussion. The ULCC vs LCC vs Legacy groupings is the real thing. I don't think anyone really cares about the way trips are built. It's the business model that matters
I fear that the company is going to use that angle to try and get lower pay rates. The company will think of Allegiant, Breeze and Sprit as our peer group while we will look at UAL/DAL/AA as our peers.
The issue is that Allegiant is already paid less than us and have been in seemingly stalled negotiations a while now. Breeze/ Avelo are kind of an apples to oranges thing as they are start ups without unions. And Spirit agreed to a short term, half raise while the merger is figured out. The peer group issue is one of great concern to me, and something we as pilots and union must fight hard.
Btw, i don't think the day turns issue has much if any bearing on the peer group discussion. The ULCC vs LCC vs Legacy groupings is the real thing. I don't think anyone really cares about the way trips are built. It's the business model that matters
The price of an Airbus pilot in the US who has all the certificates/quals/experience necessary to perform 121 OPS should be fairly established by now and the fact that one or two companies havn't upped their game yet to match is actually irrelevant, there is enough of a "peer group" of employees doing the exact same tasks for fairly standardized compensation of A320 CA/FO's to be fairly and accurately bargain off of.
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