Airline Pilot Central Forums - Some perspective on what we do

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- - Some perspective on what we do (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/frontier/149832-some-perspective-what-we-do.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3895510)

This is the answer Grok gave. Remember Grok is an AI and doesn't have an agenda (we hope) and no emotional connection to either argument.

Several factors could justify a Delta Airlines pilot flying an A320 earning more than a Frontier Airlines pilot flying the same aircraft:

Career Trajectory and Pilot Retention: Delta is often a destination airline for pilots, attracting seasoned aviators who see it as a long-term career goal with higher pay and stability. In contrast, Frontier operates as a mid-tier, stepping-stone airline, where many pilots—especially younger ones—gain experience before moving to top-tier carriers like United, American, or Delta. This dynamic means Delta tends to employ pilots who’ve reached a career pinnacle, while Frontier’s workforce includes less senior pilots, impacting pay scales.
Company Revenue and Profitability: Delta generates significantly higher revenue and operates on a larger scale than Frontier. This financial capacity allows Delta to offer higher salaries while maintaining profitability. Frontier, as an ultra-low-cost carrier, prioritizes keeping operational costs—including labor—lower to offer competitive ticket prices.
Benefits and Perks: Beyond base salary, Delta pilots often receive better retirement plans, health benefits, and profit-sharing bonuses, which effectively increase their total compensation package compared to Frontier’s leaner offerings.
Market Positioning: Delta competes as a premium airline, which supports paying pilots more to attract and retain top talent. Frontier, aiming for cost efficiency, might not prioritize the same level of pilot compensation to keep fares low.
Profit Margins: Frontier operates on razor-thin profit margins compared to Delta, which enjoys robust profitability from its larger scale and premium market position. Paying Frontier pilots the same as Delta’s could push Frontier into unprofitability, as its low-cost model relies on keeping expenses—including labor—tightly controlled.

Is that you Barry? Or are you the new Flight Ops VP trying to lower expectations?

Frontier was the highest paying Airbus A320 operator in the US when I got hired (actually A319 and A318). It baffles me why so many of you have convinced yourself that you are somehow worth less than your peers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aero1900 (Post 3895824)

You already know how you're voting? I guess that's a "zero information voter"?

Hopefully that's not what you meant

If you interpreted my commentary as automatically binary, then that's not what was intended. I agree we all need to be informed voters.

What I intended to convey was I know what I'm looking for in a TA. I say that in the same manner someone might say if a vehicle doesn't have AWD then they won't purchase.

Specifically, I expect our pay (total compensation, not just hourly rate) to be on par with other 121 carriers including legacies.

If it's not, I "already know" I'll vote no because total compensation is important to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stayontarget (Post 3895530)

So if the international market or CC game collapses overnight and Frontier is suddenly more profitable than Delta should their pilots make less than us? Unlikely but let’s just say hypothetically….

if that happens delta immediately enters bankruptcy. There’s no chance they could be profitable without the $7b Amex revenue they get each year (CC revenue is over 95% profit margins at airlines).

yiu think delta could survive with the same costs yet 7b less in revenue???

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColdWhiskey (Post 3895896)

Interesting. Was Frontier a ULCC when you got hired and had those pay rates?

Quote:

Originally Posted by captnate702 (Post 3895906)

Easily. You're presumption is that Delta's massive domestic network, premium seats and International routes are all huge money losers somehow and that Delta only makes a bunch of money because AMEX just gifts them $7B a year for doing nothing.

Delta's costs would be much less if they didn't have to fly around $7B in revenue worth of people, bags, etc. At their current profit margin they'd save about $6.1B in costs and so they would only be down $900M in net profit. Still a multi-billion dollar profitable company.

Quote:

Originally Posted by captnate702 (Post 3895906)

That’s not really the question I was asking but I would generally agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FML2022 (Post 3895928)

Interesting. Was Frontier a ULCC when you got hired and had those pay rates?

Hired in 2006. Wasn’t a low cost. Narrow body Rates were better than jb, cal, amr, usair. I believe a few were slightly better but the industry in general was a mess. You were either in bankruptcy or going into it when oil prices spiked with the Iraq invasion or 08 financial crises. F9 was the last in so our rates and work rules were better than most until bankruptcy at which point we went from last in to last out. Putting us two cycles behind in part due to a two year contract extension with republic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendlyPilot (Post 3895940)

I trust chat gpt and common sense more than friendly pilot from a forum:

Notably, in 2024, Delta’s cost per available seat mile (CASM) exceeded its passenger revenue per available seat mile (PRASM), indicating that the airline incurred losses on its core passenger operations. Despite this, Delta reported an operating profit of $6.0 billion for the year, largely due to the substantial income from its co-branded credit card partnership.

Therefore, without the revenue from its American Express partnership, Delta Air Lines would have faced challenges in achieving profitability in 2024.

https://www.investopedia.com/the-fou...ce=chatgpt.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stayontarget (Post 3895943)

That’s not really the question I was asking but I would generally agree.

I am fighting the same fine over here at G4. But doing some digging on legacy revenue streams and economy of scale actually depressed me more. G4 today spends more on pilot labor as a percentage of overall revenue than delta. That is how massive the revenue bump of the CC and international first class flying is for the legacies.

That and in my personal opinion, they are too big to fail or get gobbled up by another carrier. so they are able to operate with a different growth mode than a mom and pop shop like Allegiant

Quote:

Originally Posted by fcoolaiddrinker (Post 3895944)

Was not aware that we did have industry leading rates at one time or why we’re behind in contract cycles. Appreciate the insight.