So what this next CBA going to look like
09-18-2025 | 04:33 AM
#161
Almost there
Joined: Apr 2021
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So your peers are DL, UA, AA, AK, SY, NK, G4, B6, WN, and XP? If every airline is your peer then no airline is your peer…
I can tell you that this answer has not resonated with any of the three mediators we’ve had during mediation. And it doesn’t seem to resonate with the NMB because we cannot even get a status meeting.
If I come off snarky it’s because I am beyond frustrated with how we keep getting boxed in by Allegiant has a “unique business model” sales job that management has sold to the mediator.
I can tell you that this answer has not resonated with any of the three mediators we’ve had during mediation. And it doesn’t seem to resonate with the NMB because we cannot even get a status meeting.
If I come off snarky it’s because I am beyond frustrated with how we keep getting boxed in by Allegiant has a “unique business model” sales job that management has sold to the mediator.
What about the idea that any airline can change its business model on a whim if they so desired?
09-18-2025 | 04:43 AM
#162
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Joined: Jun 2021
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From: Joystick Operator
Our "Peers" are anyone who flies 320s and 321s.
The issue is we can't use Allegiant or Spirit/Jetblue right now because their rates are not from a new CBA... You can't just be asked to average the rates of your peers, then be told your peers are the ones with no contracts and lower pay from 2018..
JB and NK never got new contracts. Their rates just went up to hold them over until they did a full CBA.
Therefore, unless they get new contracts, we can't average G4, JB or NK into any calculations.
The issue is we can't use Allegiant or Spirit/Jetblue right now because their rates are not from a new CBA... You can't just be asked to average the rates of your peers, then be told your peers are the ones with no contracts and lower pay from 2018..
JB and NK never got new contracts. Their rates just went up to hold them over until they did a full CBA.
Therefore, unless they get new contracts, we can't average G4, JB or NK into any calculations.
09-18-2025 | 11:25 AM
#163
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Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Lineholder
I don't skip anyones' comments. I've learned things here and I've taught as well. It's the whole purpose of the blog...
Last edited by dracir1; 09-18-2025 at 11:48 AM.
09-18-2025 | 11:47 AM
#164
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Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Lineholder
Then who is your peer or comparator airline? Our union leadership at G4 have explained this that when the mediator asks who the union believes are the comparator airlines and why, that you better have an answer.
so Dracir, who would you say F9’s peers/comparators are and why? I’m genuinely curious because I think you’re smart and informed and might have some good reasoning that we could use over here at Allegiant because we are getting pidgeon holed into NK, F9, MX, and SY when we obviously compared to AK, WN, DL, et al the legacies.
so Dracir, who would you say F9’s peers/comparators are and why? I’m genuinely curious because I think you’re smart and informed and might have some good reasoning that we could use over here at Allegiant because we are getting pidgeon holed into NK, F9, MX, and SY when we obviously compared to AK, WN, DL, et al the legacies.
Over the years, F9 transitioned into a strict ULCC - namely in poor customer service. EVERY thing was cheap, down to the cost of the aircraft lease, baggage handling crews and outsourcing of gate agents. This was MOST similar to NK in the lack of regard for the customer AND type of flying (more large base to base). Up until three years ago, NK was our closest peer. Now, IMHO, NK is barely an airline. It's unfortunate but true.
If you saw Burger King going out of business, would you say "Ah man, they ARE just like McDonald's" or would you say "Ah man, they WERE just like McDonalds?"
My answer to the mediator would be "We fly A320/21s with 240 seats from NYC to LAX, SJU to LGA and ATL to SFO. We fly around more people than some UA/AA/DL widebodies. We're a national airline w/ long haul and short haul capabilities and routes. If anything, our peer group is any 73/321 domestic only flyer who has the ability to carry 240 pax." This would be my justification for using their 76/330 pay rates as a STARTING place.
So your peers are DL, UA, AA, AK, SY, NK, G4, B6, WN, and XP? If every airline is your peer then no airline is your peer…
I can tell you that this answer has not resonated with any of the three mediators we’ve had during mediation. And it doesn’t seem to resonate with the NMB because we cannot even get a status meeting.
If I come off snarky it’s because I am beyond frustrated with how we keep getting boxed in by Allegiant has a “unique business model” sales job that management has sold to the mediator.
I can tell you that this answer has not resonated with any of the three mediators we’ve had during mediation. And it doesn’t seem to resonate with the NMB because we cannot even get a status meeting.
If I come off snarky it’s because I am beyond frustrated with how we keep getting boxed in by Allegiant has a “unique business model” sales job that management has sold to the mediator.
Last edited by dracir1; 09-18-2025 at 12:15 PM.
09-18-2025 | 08:40 PM
#165
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 149
Likes: 6
We are the lone ULCC. To me, back in late 2013 when Indigo bought F9, I thought they had a model similar to SWA in mind (w/ a twist). Low prices, tons of seats and querky/unique customer service that a segment of the population would enjoy. Lots of destinations focused on somewhat regional airline flying type of shorter trips focused on strictly those most profitable point to point destinations. TBH, (hindsight being 20/20), this would've been the SMARTEST plan.
Over the years, F9 transitioned into a strict ULCC - namely in poor customer service. EVERY thing was cheap, down to the cost of the aircraft lease, baggage handling crews and outsourcing of gate agents. This was MOST similar to NK in the lack of regard for the customer AND type of flying (more large base to base). Up until three years ago, NK was our closest peer. Now, IMHO, NK is barely an airline. It's unfortunate but true.
If you saw Burger King going out of business, would you say "Ah man, they ARE just like McDonald's" or would you say "Ah man, they WERE just like McDonalds?"
My answer to the mediator would be "We fly A320/21s with 240 seats from NYC to LAX, SJU to LGA and ATL to SFO. We fly around more people than some UA/AA/DL widebodies. We're a national airline w/ long haul and short haul capabilities and routes. If anything, our peer group is any 73/321 domestic only flyer who has the ability to carry 240 pax." This would be my justification for using their 76/330 pay rates as a STARTING place.
I think we are similar in that regard. I have yet to determine if that's a benefit or a detriment (sounds like more of the latter from your take).
Over the years, F9 transitioned into a strict ULCC - namely in poor customer service. EVERY thing was cheap, down to the cost of the aircraft lease, baggage handling crews and outsourcing of gate agents. This was MOST similar to NK in the lack of regard for the customer AND type of flying (more large base to base). Up until three years ago, NK was our closest peer. Now, IMHO, NK is barely an airline. It's unfortunate but true.
If you saw Burger King going out of business, would you say "Ah man, they ARE just like McDonald's" or would you say "Ah man, they WERE just like McDonalds?"
My answer to the mediator would be "We fly A320/21s with 240 seats from NYC to LAX, SJU to LGA and ATL to SFO. We fly around more people than some UA/AA/DL widebodies. We're a national airline w/ long haul and short haul capabilities and routes. If anything, our peer group is any 73/321 domestic only flyer who has the ability to carry 240 pax." This would be my justification for using their 76/330 pay rates as a STARTING place.
I think we are similar in that regard. I have yet to determine if that's a benefit or a detriment (sounds like more of the latter from your take).
09-19-2025 | 06:43 AM
#166
Stirring the pot
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,617
Likes: 66
From: Off reserve 🤫
Long haul? Uh, no… short haul domestic airline that does some tourist international destinations. 240 pax in a 321 and still can’t turn a profit. You want 76/330 rates… good luck with that, if you want those rates go to a legacy airline then because no mediator sees F9 as anything more than a smaller version of NK
that metric lies squarely on Biffle‘s shoulders.
09-19-2025 | 11:14 AM
#167
On Reserve
Joined: Sep 2018
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09-19-2025 | 07:34 PM
#168
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,982
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From: Lineholder
If your company isn't profitable while paying the employees 40% less than other companies that are turning a profit, then labor costs obviously aren't the problem.
Also, pilot (and flight attendants) are DIRECT labor. Mgt labor is indirect. The more direct labor you lose (due to attrition), the more directly your product is affected. More thought should be put into the # of VPs we seem to have (and their salaries).
09-19-2025 | 07:36 PM
#169
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Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Lineholder
Long haul? Uh, no… short haul domestic airline that does some tourist international destinations. 240 pax in a 321 and still can’t turn a profit. You want 76/330 rates… good luck with that, if you want those rates go to a legacy airline then because no mediator sees F9 as anything more than a smaller version of NK
09-20-2025 | 02:12 PM
#170
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Joined: Sep 2025
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Likes: 39
That argument is easily quelled w/ common sense.
If your company isn't profitable while paying the employees 40% less than other companies that are turning a profit, then labor costs obviously aren't the problem.
Also, pilot (and flight attendants) are DIRECT labor. Mgt labor is indirect. The more direct labor you lose (due to attrition), the more directly your product is affected. More thought should be put into the # of VPs we seem to have (and their salaries).
If your company isn't profitable while paying the employees 40% less than other companies that are turning a profit, then labor costs obviously aren't the problem.
Also, pilot (and flight attendants) are DIRECT labor. Mgt labor is indirect. The more direct labor you lose (due to attrition), the more directly your product is affected. More thought should be put into the # of VPs we seem to have (and their salaries).
And most certainly, the NMB will NEVER look at a 321 as a pay comparative to a wide-body, no matter how many bodies you put in that 321. They never have and they never will.
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