Frontier to vote on ALPA
12-27-2015, 08:37 PM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Originally Posted by zoooropa
I have been ALPA at two carriers and I am a big fan of FAPA so take my responses as a biased view. If the F9 pilot group elects ALPA (I don't think this will happen but it is a possibility) the existing members of the BoD Executive Board will essentially become the MEC. We will have another round of elections after the representation election. I personally do not believe we will have better tools if ALPA comes to town. ALPA has some skilled and intelligent attorneys and staff but there is only so much skill and intelligence to go around all of the ALPA properties. When I was ALPA we were assigned complete idiots to handle our negotiation and Contract Administration. We didn't get the A team, or the B team or even the D team. We were assigned new hire attorneys that didn't have a clue what they were doing. Even if we get the B team from ALPA at Frontier they will not compare to the professionals that FAPA has partnered with over the years. A vote for ALPA is a huge step backwards in this regard.
Many people want ALPA for its "resources" in scheduling, safety and lobbying efforts in DC. FAPA has participated in ALPA's scheduling round table for the past decade and FAPA has always sent pilots to the various safety schools available. The F9 pilots do not miss out on any of these resources by staying independent. It is illegal for ALPA to use regular dues for its lobbying efforts and political contributions. All of those funds are via special PAC deductions, i.e. "extra payments" to ALPA.
The big stick that ALPA likes to wave against independent unions (similar to what Companies do against labor groups attempting to organize) is instill fear about the cost of representation. This just happened last month when ALPA was in town talking about how quickly FAPA could run out of money against Indigo. This is complete B.S. FAPA would have MORE money if we stay independent (MUCH more money would be available for FAPA projects as issues as opposed to ALPA projects and issues). If we end up on Strike (and I believe we will end up on Strike) we will need a special assessment either way regardless of the bargaining agent. In short, if we stay FAPA the professional assistance is better, the resources are the same, and the funding is better.
The ALPA Merger Policy is nothing more than a guide for the MEC's involved. It explains how the MEC's can work together to eventually implement the IMSL and negotiate a JCBA. It doesn't provide any additional protection than Allegheny Mohawk and McKaskill Bond (LPP's 3 and 13). If you are wondering how FAPA would fare against an ALPA carrier if we merge again I can only direct you to look at the previous IMSL in which ALPA and FAPA were participants and ask yourself who came out ahead. Additionally, ALPA continued to fight FAPA for several years in two different federal courts yet FAPA prevailed in each situation. FAPA was simultaneously fighting the IBT in yet another district court over two different matters. FAPA prevailed in each of those as well. I am biased but FAPA, with the help of some of the best attorneys and consultants available, has provided some incredible benefits since Frontier filed BK in 2008.
It is challenging to start an Independent Union and that is where ALPA has some leverage. FAPA just passed the strongest budget in its history when measured by Dues Revenue. I would expect a special assessment to be passed in 2017 and 2018 in an effort to build the savings even more but that will likely happen if we are ALPA.
With FAPA we keep all the dues for our needs. With ALPA we ship off .45% of the 1.95% dues to pay for staff. Of the remaining 1.5%, we keep .24% for our MEC. I am astonished how anyone thinks this is an improvement. Meanwhile we do not get to hire our own attorneys or hire our own consultants.
It is a no-brainer in my opinion to remain Independent. I have been here 10 years with FAPA and I was an ALPA member for six years at two other airlines. There is simply no comparison in the level of service and bargaining ability.
Many people want ALPA for its "resources" in scheduling, safety and lobbying efforts in DC. FAPA has participated in ALPA's scheduling round table for the past decade and FAPA has always sent pilots to the various safety schools available. The F9 pilots do not miss out on any of these resources by staying independent. It is illegal for ALPA to use regular dues for its lobbying efforts and political contributions. All of those funds are via special PAC deductions, i.e. "extra payments" to ALPA.
The big stick that ALPA likes to wave against independent unions (similar to what Companies do against labor groups attempting to organize) is instill fear about the cost of representation. This just happened last month when ALPA was in town talking about how quickly FAPA could run out of money against Indigo. This is complete B.S. FAPA would have MORE money if we stay independent (MUCH more money would be available for FAPA projects as issues as opposed to ALPA projects and issues). If we end up on Strike (and I believe we will end up on Strike) we will need a special assessment either way regardless of the bargaining agent. In short, if we stay FAPA the professional assistance is better, the resources are the same, and the funding is better.
The ALPA Merger Policy is nothing more than a guide for the MEC's involved. It explains how the MEC's can work together to eventually implement the IMSL and negotiate a JCBA. It doesn't provide any additional protection than Allegheny Mohawk and McKaskill Bond (LPP's 3 and 13). If you are wondering how FAPA would fare against an ALPA carrier if we merge again I can only direct you to look at the previous IMSL in which ALPA and FAPA were participants and ask yourself who came out ahead. Additionally, ALPA continued to fight FAPA for several years in two different federal courts yet FAPA prevailed in each situation. FAPA was simultaneously fighting the IBT in yet another district court over two different matters. FAPA prevailed in each of those as well. I am biased but FAPA, with the help of some of the best attorneys and consultants available, has provided some incredible benefits since Frontier filed BK in 2008.
It is challenging to start an Independent Union and that is where ALPA has some leverage. FAPA just passed the strongest budget in its history when measured by Dues Revenue. I would expect a special assessment to be passed in 2017 and 2018 in an effort to build the savings even more but that will likely happen if we are ALPA.
With FAPA we keep all the dues for our needs. With ALPA we ship off .45% of the 1.95% dues to pay for staff. Of the remaining 1.5%, we keep .24% for our MEC. I am astonished how anyone thinks this is an improvement. Meanwhile we do not get to hire our own attorneys or hire our own consultants.
It is a no-brainer in my opinion to remain Independent. I have been here 10 years with FAPA and I was an ALPA member for six years at two other airlines. There is simply no comparison in the level of service and bargaining ability.
In a decision as big as this we deserve to have both sides compete ferociously for our love, money, and trust. I would like to see a pro FAPA effort that would have equal time next to any ALPA showcase. Maybe it could somehow be disconnected from the BOD, to avoid any appearance of impropriety.
I'm afraid once this thing gets going, all the glossy ALPA limelight in-itself will command a winning vote. Unless there is a consistent, well presented FAPA counterpoint made from people who know what they're talking about, to every ALPA assertion, they will walk away with the vote.
Disclaimer. I'm honestly not for or against either eventuality, I'm too ignorant to know what side is best. (And I've had my ear to the rail ) But that's kinda my point. We must make sure both sides are represented, and FAPA leadership shouldn't be accused of being coercive just because they want to argue for the survival of what they view as best.
Just my opinion.
12-27-2015, 08:51 PM
#102
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
For crying out-loud we've already been told we're going to get ALPA's magazine sent to us. In my mind this type of stuff subverts our ability to make an honest decision, and without a counterpoint, it will sway this group toward ALPA. Am I crazy for thinking this way? If so set me strait all.
On a brighter and lighter side: For years I looked at that magazine on my coffee table and joked it was the most expensive subscription I ever purchased. Hey at least this way I'm going to get it for free for awhile.
On a brighter and lighter side: For years I looked at that magazine on my coffee table and joked it was the most expensive subscription I ever purchased. Hey at least this way I'm going to get it for free for awhile.
12-28-2015, 08:16 AM
#103
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 2
Sulkair I couldn't agree more. I have been here for awhile and lean toward staying FAPA. But it seems as though even the BOD have thrown in the towel and are ready to just hand everything over to ALPA. One of the questions I have is if ALPA is going to put an assessment on us right away as well as higher dues. Why can't FAPA do the same thing and we keep all the money for negotiations instead of a small portion? I keep hearing how FAPA will go bankrupt trying to fight Franke and we need more resources. However, if we go ALPA it seems to me we are really sending all our resources to them. I personally believe ALPA wants the same thing as the company "our money".
12-28-2015, 08:43 AM
#104
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 93
Originally Posted by Irishman
Sulkair I couldn't agree more. I have been here for awhile and lean toward staying FAPA. But it seems as though even the BOD have thrown in the towel and are ready to just hand everything over to ALPA. One of the questions I have is if ALPA is going to put an assessment on us right away as well as higher dues. Why can't FAPA do the same thing and we keep all the money for negotiations instead of a small portion? I keep hearing how FAPA will go bankrupt trying to fight Franke and we need more resources. However, if we go ALPA it seems to me we are really sending all our resources to them. I personally believe ALPA wants the same thing as the company "our money".
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but from the outside the question seems to be, do you trust your BOD leadership? I would bet it would be worth the effort to speak directly with the BOD and ask if there is a "net (financial) benefit" of going with ALPA. To my knowledge, historically, smaller carriers have utilized/drawn more in resources (financial) than they pay in dues. I would be interested to see the math in the FAPA vs. ALPA scenario.
All the best,
Skipper
12-29-2015, 11:13 AM
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 624
Originally Posted by tzskipper
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but from the outside the question seems to be, do you trust your BOD leadership? I would bet it would be worth the effort to speak directly with the BOD and ask if there is a "net (financial) benefit" of going with ALPA. To my knowledge, historically, smaller carriers have utilized/drawn more in resources (financial) than they pay in dues. I would be interested to see the math in the FAPA vs. ALPA scenario.
All the best,
Skipper
All the best,
Skipper
Will F9 pilots receive more "service" for their dues dollars from ALPA in 2015? Unlikely
2016? Unlikely
Will F9 pilots receive higher quality service for their dues dollars from ALPA in any year?
Impossible.
To Sulks point, I think the ALPA debate is solving itself. ALPA will not put the effort into a divided group. The FAPA election just proved that point. I think we will see them quietly exit the picture. If this eventually goes to a vote and the vote continues to be split they will simply disappear into thin air.
12-29-2015, 07:33 PM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 154
Originally Posted by zoooropa
If this eventually goes to a vote and the vote continues to be split they will simply disappear into thin air.
12-30-2015, 09:45 AM
#107
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow
I hope they don't let the door hit them in the ass on the way out. Adios, MF'ers.
Great plan. As they leave and the door hits them, so will a chance of an actual airline contract. But at least you will be happy...as will management.
Sorry Leslie...
Monk
12-30-2015, 09:56 AM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Originally Posted by Flymonkey10
Great plan. As they leave and the door hits them, so will a chance of an actual airline contract. But at least you will be happy...as will management.
Sorry Leslie...
Monk
Sorry Leslie...
Monk
Not trying to be antagonistic - I'm simply begging for perspective.
12-30-2015, 11:40 AM
#109
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by sulkair
If this is true, why don't you take apart, piece by piece, Zoo's arguments in favor of an independent FAPA.
Not trying to be antagonistic - I'm simply begging for perspective.
Not trying to be antagonistic - I'm simply begging for perspective.
I believe that I did in multiple posts.
12-30-2015, 12:09 PM
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 879
Originally Posted by Irishman
One of the questions I have is if ALPA is going to put an assessment on us right away as well as higher dues. Why can't FAPA do the same thing and we keep all the money for negotiations instead of a small portion?
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