Frontier to vote on ALPA
12-09-2015, 06:07 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: A320/CA
Posts: 165
My opinion, in regard to merger integration, just in case it happens some day.
Remember the TWA/AA merger? Just a few years ago ALPA agreed to pay $53 million dollars after an 11 year fight with a few members of TWA for misrepresenting them (via a duty of fair representation suit) in the merge. APA placed the 2,500 most senior American pilots at the top of the list. It then folded in about 1,100 of the most senior TWA pilots into the AA list at a ratio of about one TWA pilot for every eight AA pilots. The American union then put the remaining TWA pilots at the bottom, after the most junior American pilots.
Remember the Airtran/SWA merger? The most senior guy at Airtran was went from number 1 to number 1,647 overnight.
Seems like in both those cases the independent Union served their members interests a bit better than the 800 pound gorilla did.
(The full Airtran/SWA integration in a nutshell: The top 1,646 slots go to SWA pilots. The next 116 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 725 SWA pilots.
The next 208 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 1351 SWA pilots.
The next 581 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 2018 SWA pilots.
The first 142 AirTran FOs are ratio'd with the next 142 SWA pilots.
The rest of the 649 AirTran FOs are stapled to the bottom of the SWA FO list.
The pilots hired at SWA after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at AirTran after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at both carriers after the transaction closed on May 2 are in DOH order at the very bottom.)
Remember the TWA/AA merger? Just a few years ago ALPA agreed to pay $53 million dollars after an 11 year fight with a few members of TWA for misrepresenting them (via a duty of fair representation suit) in the merge. APA placed the 2,500 most senior American pilots at the top of the list. It then folded in about 1,100 of the most senior TWA pilots into the AA list at a ratio of about one TWA pilot for every eight AA pilots. The American union then put the remaining TWA pilots at the bottom, after the most junior American pilots.
Remember the Airtran/SWA merger? The most senior guy at Airtran was went from number 1 to number 1,647 overnight.
Seems like in both those cases the independent Union served their members interests a bit better than the 800 pound gorilla did.
(The full Airtran/SWA integration in a nutshell: The top 1,646 slots go to SWA pilots. The next 116 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 725 SWA pilots.
The next 208 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 1351 SWA pilots.
The next 581 AirTran captains are ratio'd with the next 2018 SWA pilots.
The first 142 AirTran FOs are ratio'd with the next 142 SWA pilots.
The rest of the 649 AirTran FOs are stapled to the bottom of the SWA FO list.
The pilots hired at SWA after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at AirTran after the merger was announced are next.
The pilots hired at both carriers after the transaction closed on May 2 are in DOH order at the very bottom.)
12-09-2015, 12:28 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,459
Originally Posted by zoooropa
{SNIP}
ALPA won the representation sales job at Allegiant, Jetblue, and Virgin...{SNIP}
ALPA won the representation sales job at Allegiant, Jetblue, and Virgin...{SNIP}
12-09-2015, 01:14 PM
#34
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: doggy style
Posts: 1,006
Originally Posted by zoooropa
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't American joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't Southwest joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't UPS joined?
The reason is the same reason we should not join. A functioning, funded, independent Union is superior to ALPA.
12-09-2015, 02:42 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Airbus (the wide ones)
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by DENpilot
Those independent unions are also 5x the size we are. It was different when FAPA was taking on just Frontier. An independent union the size of FAPA cannot sustain against a giant like Indigo.
Not to mention, what about after the ipo? At that point indigo is out and we are just another publicly traded company like anyone else. Fapa still can't fulfill our needs? The only thing that is limiting our goals is the expectation and dedication of our electorate.
12-10-2015, 05:52 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by zoooropa
The problem with this theory is the definition of "resources of ALPA". I have been ALPA, they have resources. Frontier pilots could benefit from some of those resources while others are off-limits to a carrier the size of Frontier. ALPA provides some tail-risk protection but the day to day ops and the people actually at the table will be much stronger if we remain independent. ALPA hasn't cornered the market on experts, in fact many of the ALPA stars have jumped ship and started their own consulting biz while others went over to the dark side at FH for bigger pay. Some "former ALPA/non-dark side" stars have been hired by FAPA and the results were incredible. The stars that ALPA has today work for the bigger revenue sources (legacy carriers).
You can't compare Jetblue's experience with Frontier. They didn't have a contract or a Union. They were desperate. You can't compare Virgin with Frontier. They didn't have a contract or a Union. They were desperate. Did jetblue and virgin improve their situation by electing ALPA instead of having no contract and no union? Maybe. We haven't seen the end-product yet.
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't American joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't Southwest joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't UPS joined?
The reason is the same reason we should not join. A functioning, funded, independent Union is superior to ALPA.
ALPA won the representation sales job at Allegiant, Jetblue, and Virgin for one reason. They scared the pilots into thinking they didn't have enough money to bargain as independents. They are trying the same exact sales job here but it doesn't apply.
Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. It is all they offer, but those stickers are cool as hell!
You can't compare Jetblue's experience with Frontier. They didn't have a contract or a Union. They were desperate. You can't compare Virgin with Frontier. They didn't have a contract or a Union. They were desperate. Did jetblue and virgin improve their situation by electing ALPA instead of having no contract and no union? Maybe. We haven't seen the end-product yet.
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't American joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't Southwest joined?
If ALPA is the answer why hasn't UPS joined?
The reason is the same reason we should not join. A functioning, funded, independent Union is superior to ALPA.
ALPA won the representation sales job at Allegiant, Jetblue, and Virgin for one reason. They scared the pilots into thinking they didn't have enough money to bargain as independents. They are trying the same exact sales job here but it doesn't apply.
Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. It is all they offer, but those stickers are cool as hell!
As stated before, Fedex went from ALPA to independent to ALPA. Also, if you go to the AA subsection, there is a discussion there about Apa also going ALPA. One other thing, ALPA is more than just bargaining a contract. To me, the most important aspect of ALPA is the safety advocacy.
12-10-2015, 06:01 AM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
and if we ever expect to have "the airplane" to pay the same wherever it is flown then we need one voice and one negotiator not a bunch of " me first, disenfranchised, college boy associations"....United we stand, Divided we fall....period....looking forward to the day that we have an Airline Pilot Union
12-10-2015, 03:10 PM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 96
Your Union is only as good as your local council. Regarding ALPA, you might want to review a little Frontier/ALPA history. There's a whole bunch of old Frontier pilots who will swear that ALPA colluded with United to prevent a merger in 86. This left a lot of Frontier pilots on the street.
12-11-2015, 06:19 AM
#40
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Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Airbus (the wide ones)
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by SmitteyB
It's inevitable
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