FlyASA

Actually if you really want to get technical Jews consider themselves to be a race and a religion. It is something you can be born into based on your mother's heritage. Now of course individuals have a choice to be practice the Jewish faith, which they should obviously not be judged on.

However choosing to apply and accept a position to GoJet isn't like choosing to believe in a religion, it's more like picking a type of car.

You believing in a certain religion has no affect on me or anyone else what-so-ever. However you choosing to go to GoJet has an impact on everyone in this industry. It sends a message to Hulas and management everywhere that you are willing to help them walk away from the negotiating table. That precedent is going to be pretty troubling when Hulas is deciding what to do with his 50 MRJ-90s (with options for 50 more).

My guess is he will play both TSA and GoJet pilots off each other to see who will do it for less. If both of your groups do happen to stand together he will simply start another alter-ego, after all he got away with it once. The end result is that we will probably end up with a regional flying 96 seaters at 70 seat wages or less with a contract that has work rules that are outdated by at least a decade. That will sure look like an enticing offer to major airlines looking to cut costs. It'll certainly be hard for everyone else at the majors and the regionals to raise the bar when all of our managements will say: "Look how cheaply these guys do it, why won't you fly that cheap? You have to fly that cheap or we are going to give the flying to them." Scope may or may not protect us, after all there is the code share wild card that management can still play.

When GoJet pilots face this scenario will they finally realize the damage their apathy has done?

How can any of you argue that the creation and continual growth of a second list and internal whipsaw that comes with does anything but harm both you and TSA's ability to negotiate for better QOL and pay?

bidnez

Every regional out there is 'whipsawing' each other. Remember, we are regional guys here- there will ALWAYS be a lowest bidder. Why not express your disdain toward the TSA pilot group as well- since anyone accepting employment there has accepted one of the worst contracts in the business, further dragging the industry to its bottom.

Look at Transstates historical record- they win flying because they are the low cost carrier. Anyone's glib expectations of changing that is a fool.

FlyASA

Everything you said is true but I think what most of us are trying to point out is that both TSA and GoJet are now going to face internal whipsaw against each other along with the usual external whipsaw. That will certainly worsen both of their abilities to negotiate better contracts than if they were under one list. That should terrify all of us since they have 50 96 seaters coming with options for 50 more.

The question now is how much lower can both of their bidding go because of this added internal whipsaw?

It was a bad situation made worse and it didn't have to happen. They all shot themselves in the foot and they don't even realize it yet. They allowed Hulas to walk away from the table.

Would TSA have gotten an Industry leading contract for the CR7s? Who knows but it would certainly be better than the current GoJet one and they would now be in a better negotiating position if the second list hadn't been created. For those who think the past is in the past think again. Every day that second list grows provides Hulas with more and more power to whipsaw both groups. Sure they can integrate but it will cost them a lot to get something they could have had for free in 2005. Moving forward it will just get more and more difficult to integrate as that second list grows. If they don't integrate both groups will always be in a weaker positions to negotiate better contracts and thus they will always be stuck at the very bottom. I don't think anyone wants to see pilot groups handicapped like that.

Blueskies21

I love the "if I didn't go to gojet someone else would have" excuse for employment there, that's a pretty self fulfilling prophecy isn't it....

Sure maybe those of us with ethics live in a la la land but you know, Does someone else's eventual action have some effect on my ethical choice? If I could see the future and knew someone was going to be killed, would it then be OK for me to go kill that guy? Afterall if I didn't kill him someone else would......

Get it now?

jparker371

why are they bringing it back? oh i see your joking....you know never to joke about the McRib right? no seriously....never.

jparker371

funny you should say that, TSA class dec 07, the only guy who went to GJ from my class when we were furloughed (aug 08) was the guy from day one who I thought was a tool and a weasel, without a shred of dignity, I actually feel bad for the GJ CA's that have to fly with him. The funny thing is, and im being perfectly honest, nobody in our small class (10 people) liked him, seriously not one person, noone had respect for him, he was arrogant, argumentative, and constantly abrasive, funny it was him that took that option, when basically it was offered to everyone of us as far as I know? how yah been brian? haha

Copperhed51

This always cracks me up because the whole reason GoJetS was created was because the TSA pilots would not accept crappy pay on the CRJ's. Now I realize that simple hourly rates are only a small part of what makes a good contract, but at least the TSA guys were willing to fight for that. If not for GoJetS, TSA would have at least industry average wages on the CR7. Additionally, TSA is in its 4th or 5th year of negotiations on a new contract and is unable to get anywhere for a multitude of reasons, the main one being the government. Either way, you saying that TSA is equally the problem is completely wrong. If you can't understand why, I can't help you.

RJSAviator76

FlyASA, I'm just curious... you're telling us that Hulas has an internal whipsaw in his pocket. I agree...

But what about you guys and Skywest? Owned by Skywest, separate seniority list. You might have it nice now... but again, you're a contract carrier. Why not merge the two? Also, who's the say that Skywest won't try to break ASA ALPA sometime down the road?

Look at UAL in 2000 and compare it with UAL of 2002 - 2009. Just a thought... you'd never guess that such a dramatic change is possible in such a short time frame. How long do you think you'll have a nice contract and not get whipsawed yourself?

So much hatred, yet living in a glass house yourself.

FlyASA

It's funny you should mention this and I actually thought it took awhile for somebody to try and make this connection. Well we don't have internal whipsaw at Inc. for a couple of reasons:

1. A lot of the actions of Inc. management clearly demonstrate who the preffered carrier is, Skywest. After we were bought a lot of the aircraft scheduled to be delievered to us ended up going to them. We also lost our SLC base while they grew in ATL.

2. We have furloughed they haven't

3. Even though Inc. worked out a nice deal for ASA for UAX, I'd say the best portions of that deal are going to Skywest. An extension on 40 airframes already at UAX and first shot at 30 turboprops for UAX. Any deal Inc. makes in the future will have the interests of Skywest first and ours second.

4. Neither Inc. or ASA management asked either group to give up concessions to bring our pilot costs in line with places like TSA or GoJet to win the United RFP. Further they didn't ask either of our groups to compete against each other and give up concessions to win the flying. We never heard statements or even rumors from our management saying whichever group did it cheaper would win. The rumors were always CR2s for ASA at IAD. Also Inc. essentially bought the contract with the $80 million loan to UA instead of asking for concessions to lower our labor costs closer to other regionals. I like the idea of management winning a contract by using money out of their back pocket not mine.

5. ASA could have come out and said they need PBS from us to win the UA RFP. Well the union has agreed in principle to it but it still needs to go to a vote. Whatever happens it'll be our own fault if we end up with PBS. It was however not forced down our throats to win the UA RFP.

6. I think management recognizes we won't easily roll over and die after the "safety campaign," we pulled to get our last contract finally complete.

7. Finally ASA wasn't created by Inc. so that management could avoid negotiating with Skywest pilots. There isn't hatred between our two groups so it would be much easier for us to stand together. Would it be easier if we were on 1 list? Absolutely but at this point in time Inc. management hasn't shown a willingness to play the whipsaw card. They have had ample opportunities to try. I know a lot of Skywest pilots and I don't think they'll stand for whipsawing either. Who knows though? It is absolutely an issue that both of our pilot groups need to keep an eye on and if it looks like management starts getting more agressive then we should both come together an integrate.


Now someone reading this might think I have a really bad case of Skywest Inc. kool-aid so before that happens realize I don't. I know picking a regional is like picking up an ugly fat chick at bar but we've all been put in this situation since the RJs aren't at mainline and mainline won't hire CFIs. It's like having to pick between a 0 and a 2 on the Tucker Max female rating system (for those unfamiliar 0 is known as a "Wildebeast" and 2 is known as a "Respectable Pig"). Yeah it's a terrible choice and I wish I had the choice of a 3-5 star female but at least the respectable pig might have a redeeming quality (nice face, boobs, etc.). However if picking the 0 encourages more of them to show up night after night, that'll drive more of the 3-5 star females away because these wildebeasts are the loud, obnoxious ones that order complicated drinks and spill them on the hot girls. I don't want to encourage that behavior so I'd rather have minimal impact on the bar scene so I'll choose the 2 star every time.

IBPilot

FACT: KFC and Taco Bell to not directly compete against each other.
mexican food vs fried chicken is apples to oranges.
Now if KFC opened a new restaurant called "KFC EXPRESS" and decided to sell the exact same product, at the same price to the customer, but pay their employees only 75% of what KFC pays, and the only reason people go there are because they heard it takes less time to go from janitor to cash register......well then you have an alter ego my friend. Who does that sound like?