How many hours are fake?
10-12-2005, 04:31 PM
#21
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
John Wayne
John Wayne Never lied,
But he never made it to the majors either.
Sometimes it seems like it is a prerequisite to get hired. Most of the people whom I have known and all of the ones who got on while young lied cheated and stole their way in. I never lied or took a short cut and I can prove it because I am swinging a hammer instead of pushing back in a clean new 737.
I know of pilots who have crashed planes and permanently injured pax and lied to get on. I have seen illegal immigrants who were being actively hunted by the authorities who got on. I witnessed a coworker who filled out an application to buy a fake degree who got on. I was involved in an investigation to fire a coworker for employee theft and was hired by our parent company before we could prosecute. When told of the crime we were told to drop it since it would be an embarrassment to the HR department.
As a younger man I was filled with a strong sense of right and wrong. I too believed that the richeous would prevail. Simulators would tell the tale. HR would catch the untrue. Age and experience has proven otherwise. I haven't changed my personal approach to life, but if I were to give advise to a new pilot I would not leave out my observations and I wouldn't hold it against anyone who tried it either. Even those who were caught lived to lie another day. I believe its just a fact of life.
SkyHigh
.
But he never made it to the majors either.
Sometimes it seems like it is a prerequisite to get hired. Most of the people whom I have known and all of the ones who got on while young lied cheated and stole their way in. I never lied or took a short cut and I can prove it because I am swinging a hammer instead of pushing back in a clean new 737.
I know of pilots who have crashed planes and permanently injured pax and lied to get on. I have seen illegal immigrants who were being actively hunted by the authorities who got on. I witnessed a coworker who filled out an application to buy a fake degree who got on. I was involved in an investigation to fire a coworker for employee theft and was hired by our parent company before we could prosecute. When told of the crime we were told to drop it since it would be an embarrassment to the HR department.
As a younger man I was filled with a strong sense of right and wrong. I too believed that the richeous would prevail. Simulators would tell the tale. HR would catch the untrue. Age and experience has proven otherwise. I haven't changed my personal approach to life, but if I were to give advise to a new pilot I would not leave out my observations and I wouldn't hold it against anyone who tried it either. Even those who were caught lived to lie another day. I believe its just a fact of life.
SkyHigh
.
10-12-2005, 05:42 PM
#22
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
I haven't changed my personal approach to life, but if I were to give advise to a new pilot I would not leave out my observations and I wouldn't hold it against anyone who tried it either. Even those who were caught lived to lie another day. I believe its just a fact of life.
While I know that there dishonest people entering aviation, they ARE found out and they ARE fired. In my 16 years at a major airline, the only profile that I've seen fired are those who lie, cheat, and steal. They are exposed and they are shown the door. I rather enjoy seeing a guy or gal without any professional ethics get tossed, and I have no compassion for them after they've wasted a good portion of their lives trying to shortcut the system only to be exposed. The great thing about someone getting hired before they are exposed is that when they are fired, the training record is part of the public record so they can't deny ever being at a carrier that fired them. Well, I shouldn't say that because of course they'll lie about it, but again they will be exposed.
I've seen people fired for falsifying logbooks or other credentials, stealing, and lying (on the job). Now there is push to purge every employee that is convicted of a felony: past, present, and future. I welcome this as I've worked hard to get where I am by playing by the rules, and frankly don't want some scumbag flying my family and friends around in a jet.
My opinion is that anyone who knowingly stands by and allows this behavior, is just as guilty if they don't attempt to intervene.
Aviation is a small world, with very few secrets.
10-12-2005, 06:46 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: 320B
Posts: 511
HSLD,
Thanks for your post. I was so dejected by the thought that this might be the prevailing attitude among some of the pilots breaking into the aviation world. I'd like to believe that as a group, our job requires more integrity than the average Joe. Our safety system requires honesty and for the most part allows special dispensation (NASA Forms, ASAP program) for the honest pilot and severe retribution for the dishonest. The very few dirt bags I've seen in the aviation business didn't last long. It's a small world and your reputation travels a long way. Respectfully, Tomcat
Thanks for your post. I was so dejected by the thought that this might be the prevailing attitude among some of the pilots breaking into the aviation world. I'd like to believe that as a group, our job requires more integrity than the average Joe. Our safety system requires honesty and for the most part allows special dispensation (NASA Forms, ASAP program) for the honest pilot and severe retribution for the dishonest. The very few dirt bags I've seen in the aviation business didn't last long. It's a small world and your reputation travels a long way. Respectfully, Tomcat
10-12-2005, 08:41 PM
#24
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Easy To Say
Ethics,
Its easy to have high standards when you are gainfully employed and doors open when needed. Try having your back against the wall and watching your dream slip away and it becomes obvious that there is little to loose and everything to gain. Most of the lies I have witnessed have been slight and at the earliest stages in ones career, but it made all the difference for those involved. .
As mentioned in a previous post some companies will lie for you. Who is the crimial then?
I proudly stuck to my ethics and I believe it cost me a career. Some of my friends lost their lives holding on to theirs. I don't know what the answer is.
SkyHigh
Its easy to have high standards when you are gainfully employed and doors open when needed. Try having your back against the wall and watching your dream slip away and it becomes obvious that there is little to loose and everything to gain. Most of the lies I have witnessed have been slight and at the earliest stages in ones career, but it made all the difference for those involved. .
As mentioned in a previous post some companies will lie for you. Who is the crimial then?
I proudly stuck to my ethics and I believe it cost me a career. Some of my friends lost their lives holding on to theirs. I don't know what the answer is.
SkyHigh
10-12-2005, 08:59 PM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: LJ35 PIC
Posts: 139
If asked my answer would be a big proud NO!
I've worked hard to get to where I am now and I will continue to do so untill I get where I want to go.
The pilot pen time only reflects what kind of indiviual you are and I would not want to work with sombody that sinks this low.
I've worked hard to get to where I am now and I will continue to do so untill I get where I want to go.
The pilot pen time only reflects what kind of indiviual you are and I would not want to work with sombody that sinks this low.
10-12-2005, 09:41 PM
#26
APC co-founder
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B777
Posts: 5,853
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Ethics, Its easy to have high standards when you are gainfully employed and doors open when needed.
Ethics extend beyond the cockpit, either you have ethics, integrity, honesty, respect...or you don't. I don't believe that anyone can turn those traits on or off, or compartmentalize those traits to only apply to the pursuit of an aviation career. The question that started this thread cuts to the chase and asks "who are you, and what are your core beliefs".
(I'll step off of my soapbox, and SkyHigh please understand that while I'm responding to your point I'm not questioning your ethics, you've been very clear where you stand.)
10-13-2005, 05:11 AM
#28
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Ethics
Ethics
If asked "what kind of ethics does it take to become the President of the United States" most peoples answer would be disappointing. I don't believe that a person of high ethical standards can make it to the highest office in the land. If fact it makes life much more difficult.
Ethics are flexible and in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe that ethics are a choice. Some are born with high ethics others are not. Those who follow a path in life that we my consider to be unethical don't consider themselves to be so. Their consious is clear. They see nothing wrong with bypassing what they consider to be an unfair system. When confronted with an obsticle they lie cheat or steal their way around it. If caught they don't display a sence of guilt since they believe that they are right. I have spent my entire life studing sucessful people, read many books on the subject. I believe that sucessful people do whatever they have to inorder to advance their cause and for many it includes cheating.
Most of our individual sucess or failure in aviation largely depends on who we know. I believe that networking is also cheating. It is an unfair advantage to those without powerful contacts, but I wouldn't hold it against anyone. Ultimately I fully believe that having high ethics is a handicap. Those of us who are born with it have an infinately more difficult life. I sleep well at night but at a huge cost. My aviation dreams will never be fulfilled.
SkyHigh
If asked "what kind of ethics does it take to become the President of the United States" most peoples answer would be disappointing. I don't believe that a person of high ethical standards can make it to the highest office in the land. If fact it makes life much more difficult.
Ethics are flexible and in the eye of the beholder. I don't believe that ethics are a choice. Some are born with high ethics others are not. Those who follow a path in life that we my consider to be unethical don't consider themselves to be so. Their consious is clear. They see nothing wrong with bypassing what they consider to be an unfair system. When confronted with an obsticle they lie cheat or steal their way around it. If caught they don't display a sence of guilt since they believe that they are right. I have spent my entire life studing sucessful people, read many books on the subject. I believe that sucessful people do whatever they have to inorder to advance their cause and for many it includes cheating.
Most of our individual sucess or failure in aviation largely depends on who we know. I believe that networking is also cheating. It is an unfair advantage to those without powerful contacts, but I wouldn't hold it against anyone. Ultimately I fully believe that having high ethics is a handicap. Those of us who are born with it have an infinately more difficult life. I sleep well at night but at a huge cost. My aviation dreams will never be fulfilled.
SkyHigh
10-13-2005, 03:16 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Any time I see or hear discussion relating to "faked" hours I am always reminded of the DC-9 F/O who was piloting an ill fated DC-9 in Denver that crashed during a snow storm. It was determined that he had a very "shaky" background. I can't recall if he had faked any hours, but I remember that they (NTSB/FAA) had a hard time verifying his flying experience. His name and reputation was smeared publicly. His family/friends/loved ones suffered greatly because of what was written about him. I am sure many pilots "pencil" in some hours, some may do it grossly, but when they make a smoking hole in the ground, the truth will come out. Not a very pleaseant thing to leave your loved ones with.
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