Unluckiest Generation
07-26-2020, 04:52 PM
#401
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
Rights are artificial constructs.
All individuals have rights inherent in our humanity. We are born with them. Now whether or not a particular government recognizes those rights is another story.
07-27-2020, 04:50 AM
#402
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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
Not at all. The Declaration of Independence disagrees with you as well as pretty much every philosopher and legal jurist since the history of western civilization.
All individuals have rights inherent in our humanity. We are born with them. Now whether or not a particular government recognizes those rights is another story.
All individuals have rights inherent in our humanity. We are born with them. Now whether or not a particular government recognizes those rights is another story.
Last edited by GogglesPisano; 07-27-2020 at 05:00 AM.
07-27-2020, 04:55 AM
#403
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
Well, golly, the “collective will“ decided slavery was just fine by them and enslaved people. Majoritarian government at its finest. I don’t see why it couldn’t happen again.
I’d guess you’d have no problem with the majority voting your property rights away or saying people shouldn’t earn 73NA pay?
I’d guess you’d have no problem with the majority voting your property rights away or saying people shouldn’t earn 73NA pay?
Who said anything about majority rule? Society codifies rights -- like the right to own property and bargain for pay.
07-27-2020, 06:58 AM
#404
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
Is an ape born with rights?
Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
You don't hear much about "rights" for the first 30,000 years of written history. Nothing about them in any religious text. They are the product of Enlightenment thinking.
07-27-2020, 10:10 AM
#405
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
Where did the right not to be enslaved come from? And why did it take most of human history to recognize it?
Who said anything about majority rule? Society codifies rights -- like the right to own property and bargain for pay.
Who said anything about majority rule? Society codifies rights -- like the right to own property and bargain for pay.
07-27-2020, 10:25 AM
#406
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Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
What is “collective will” but majority voting outcomes. Crime are violations of law enacted by governments voted in by the collective will.
In either case they are the result of society and the collective will. The term "rights" was meaningless prior to society. Hunter-gatherer tribes would routinely massacre and enslave rival tribes. I doubt any tribesman would say, "Stop -- you're infringing on my rights!" The idea didn't exist.
07-27-2020, 12:43 PM
#408
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Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
In either case they are the result of society and the collective will. The term "rights" was meaningless prior to society.
Just because previous societies didn't recognize these rights didn't mean they didn't exist. Rights don't come from society. They come from our humanity, which is unique. The government doesn't give rights, society doesn't give rights, humans can't give other humans rights. This is settled jurisprudence that every philosopher and law school student learns pretty much on day 1 of school.
Also the idea of "collective will" is a myth. People can only make decisions for themselves, and can only be held accountable for their own actions.
07-27-2020, 12:55 PM
#409
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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
You are confused as has been explained a couple of times above.
Just because previous societies didn't recognize these rights didn't mean they didn't exist. Rights don't come from society. They come from our humanity, which is unique. The government doesn't give rights, society doesn't give rights, humans can't give other humans rights. This is settled jurisprudence that every philosopher and law school student learns pretty much on day 1 of school.
Also the idea of "collective will" is a myth. People can only make decisions for themselves, and can only be held accountable for their own actions.
Just because previous societies didn't recognize these rights didn't mean they didn't exist. Rights don't come from society. They come from our humanity, which is unique. The government doesn't give rights, society doesn't give rights, humans can't give other humans rights. This is settled jurisprudence that every philosopher and law school student learns pretty much on day 1 of school.
Also the idea of "collective will" is a myth. People can only make decisions for themselves, and can only be held accountable for their own actions.
What "human rights" did pre-literate ancient cave-painters have 30,000 years ago? If they didn't recognize these rights, if they didn't agree on them and codify them -- how did they exist exactly?
As far as your idea of "collective will" not existing, what do you call the agered-upon customs and laws found in society?
07-27-2020, 03:12 PM
#410
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Originally Posted by SonicFlyer
Also the idea of "collective will" is a myth. People can only make decisions for themselves, and can only be held accountable for their own actions.
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