No shortage
03-13-2008, 04:15 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
I do my share of hanging around airports when I'm not flying for DAL. The pilots I hang out with, whether they work for corporate, fractionals, majors, or regionals, are very happy with their careers. Are they trying for the next rung? Some are, but it's increasingly hard to define which is the higher rung.
I do, however, know some guys who got away from aviation during the recent dark days. Some of them may be making good money, but they are more unhappy than most of the people I know. Making a lot of money doesn't make you happy if you hate going to work.
I do, however, know some guys who got away from aviation during the recent dark days. Some of them may be making good money, but they are more unhappy than most of the people I know. Making a lot of money doesn't make you happy if you hate going to work.
03-13-2008, 06:16 AM
#22
Self Employed.
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Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
I didn't either
Originally Posted by de727ups
I never knew anybody at any job I ever had......
SkyHigh
03-13-2008, 06:33 AM
#23
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Research Staff
Originally Posted by Radials Rule
You claim that you do so much number crunching and research but your "work" is full of holes.....many of which have been pointed out to you repeatedly. SWA, UPS, and FedEx, although nice, aren't the be all end all of a successful and rewarding flying career. As for the legacies? Again, the goal of many....however, not all will be a failure by flying for less than trucker wages for the first couple of years just because they didn't get on with American.
It boils down to that you decided to end (or pause) your flying career. Whatever issues you have with that should not be reflected on those that decided to stick with it. You say that aspiring professional pilots should be informed and I'm all for that. However, you unrealistically cut down on the industry every chance you get under the guise of keeping folks "informed"
. You're the antithesis of Kit Darby.......in other words, opposite fringes.
You contend that odds are against an aspiring professional pilot that wants to make a successful career of it. That is abject nonsense. With the perseverance that you didn't have, most anyone can have a fulfilling flying career. This is why I think that you're just trying to make yourself feel better by spreading your negativity. Attitude goes a long way, either way. Yours took you the other way.
It boils down to that you decided to end (or pause) your flying career. Whatever issues you have with that should not be reflected on those that decided to stick with it. You say that aspiring professional pilots should be informed and I'm all for that. However, you unrealistically cut down on the industry every chance you get under the guise of keeping folks "informed"
. You're the antithesis of Kit Darby.......in other words, opposite fringes.You contend that odds are against an aspiring professional pilot that wants to make a successful career of it. That is abject nonsense. With the perseverance that you didn't have, most anyone can have a fulfilling flying career. This is why I think that you're just trying to make yourself feel better by spreading your negativity. Attitude goes a long way, either way. Yours took you the other way.
My analysis is based on the opportunity cost and odds of success virus potential return on investment in terms of pay and QOL. It is my contention that unless someone is a totally gone avjunkie or independently wealthy then they must be considering the financial implications of choosing an airline career.
As such, the small fortune and huge personal sacrifices commonly required to become a professional pilot need to be compared with the potential return that a career in aviation can provide.
It seems to me that most every 19 year old must be banking on a quick, and almost certain trip, to SWA after graduation if they are willing to blow the college trust fund on an aviation degree to then be followed by 60 to 80K (or more $109 a barrel) on flight training. If you were to stand back and measure all that is given in the pursuit of a UAL uniform and right seat in a 737 against more than a decade of your life and the cost of a small house in college and training. I can't see how the 60K pay check is worth it when others with no training costs at all are able to do similar.
I do not have a research staff to fill in all the gaps, however even if you were to cut my conclusions in half they are still tall numbers. Even you must be able to admit that much of ones success in aviation is largely out of your hands. And as such is really not a very sound investment.
SkyHigh
03-13-2008, 07:00 AM
#24
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
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Good Job
Originally Posted by t-cart
Totally agree with this. As said, UPS,FEDEX,and the others are the great jobs. But, I personally know of single engine turbine jobs that can make really good wages, and you dont have to work all year to do it. Dont even have to have an instrument rating or multi rating. I understand that lots of guys will not make it to The big airlines, but you CAN have a very rewarding career in aviation.
We all need to define what a "Good" job is. Spending 60-100K on training plus four years of your life in college with the costs to get a degree demands a large salary if it were to justify itself on a purely financial level. Anything outside of that is really a working hobby and not a profession. A subsidized pastime.
People should know how much their "job satisfaction" is costing them.
It is my belief that mostly only wealthy middle class people seeking to avoid getting a real job would find such a prospect as a flying career as a good idea. Poor people do not have the resources to burn on such any risky and potentially non-productive career venture.
In summary 60K is not enough. Especially when increasingly common blue collar trades are able to reach that without the added training and education.
SkyHigh
03-13-2008, 07:12 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
It is my belief that mostly only wealthy middle class people seeking to avoid getting a real job would find such a prospect as a flying career as a good idea. Poor people do not have the resources to burn on such any risky and potentially non-productive career venture.
SkyHigh
I've heard of wealthy people, and I've heard of middle-class people, but never wealthy, middle-class people.
03-13-2008, 07:17 AM
#26
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True
Originally Posted by CVG767A
I've heard of wealthy people, and I've heard of middle-class people, but never wealthy, middle-class people.
I guess I was making the comparison to the poor who consider the middle class as well of. I know that I still consider the middle class as being wealthy.
SkyHigh
03-13-2008, 04:55 PM
#27
Rubber dogsh#t out of HKG
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Senior Seat Cushion Tester Extraordinaire
Posts: 622
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Even you must be able to admit that much of ones success in aviation is largely out of your hands. And as such is really not a very sound investment.
SkyHigh
SkyHigh
03-13-2008, 08:14 PM
#28
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Yea
Originally Posted by Radials Rule
"largely out of your hands"? No, I won't admit that because it is not true. Sure, there is an element of success in aviation being out of one's hands. However, success in aviation is no more out of someone's hands than success in any other worthwhile profession.
Yes, I guess you are right. I suppose success is determined by the individual. If someone wants to put themselves out there for empty decade after decade they can. They may be old and used up most of the best years of their life chasing a 60K job and right seat in a big jet but I suppose you are right. Anyone can reach their goals if they stick to it long enough.
I have this handicap of limiting myself to prudent and rational decisions.
SkyHigh
03-14-2008, 03:08 AM
#29
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Joined APC: May 2006
Position: ATP, CFI etc.
Posts: 6,056
paradox
There is a paradox between the kind of dog-determined, do-or-die attitude necessary to win at something as difficult and competitive as legacy airline flying and the mindset associated with rational appraisal of ones odds in choosing a direction in life and career.
Although I am competitive by nature I found my limits early enough to put winning for the sake of winning aside in my life and I concentrated on other things like spiritual development and charity work. Later I realized my career was being neglected and I went back to school and started pushing for personal success. I think I have balanced values for the most part, but I do not pass judgment on those who throw everything into a bid for a particular achievement and define themselves in the narrow light of an all consuming endeavor. They are heroic and deserve their hard won respect.
People hate Sky for droning on about how competitive the upper reaches of the airline industry are and what an expensive thing it is to lose in a campaign for a top spot, and I think he is mostly right about that and how competitive it is at the top, but I also believe that 1) if you want to win in something you have to throw everything into the fight and not worry about the odds and 2) the airline biz is no worse or better than many other highly-competitive field. But it is a bit of a paradox that winning requires some blindness.
Although I am competitive by nature I found my limits early enough to put winning for the sake of winning aside in my life and I concentrated on other things like spiritual development and charity work. Later I realized my career was being neglected and I went back to school and started pushing for personal success. I think I have balanced values for the most part, but I do not pass judgment on those who throw everything into a bid for a particular achievement and define themselves in the narrow light of an all consuming endeavor. They are heroic and deserve their hard won respect.
People hate Sky for droning on about how competitive the upper reaches of the airline industry are and what an expensive thing it is to lose in a campaign for a top spot, and I think he is mostly right about that and how competitive it is at the top, but I also believe that 1) if you want to win in something you have to throw everything into the fight and not worry about the odds and 2) the airline biz is no worse or better than many other highly-competitive field. But it is a bit of a paradox that winning requires some blindness.
Last edited by Cubdriver; 03-14-2008 at 03:28 AM.
03-14-2008, 06:20 AM
#30
Self Employed.
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Lets not forget
Originally Posted by Cubdriver
There is a paradox between the kind of dog-determined, do-or-die attitude necessary to win at something as difficult and competitive as legacy airline flying and the mindset associated with rational appraisal of ones odds in choosing a direction in life and career.
Although I am competitive by nature I found my limits early enough to put winning for the sake of winning aside in my life and I concentrated on other things like spiritual development and charity work. Later I realized my career was being neglected and I went back to school and started pushing for personal success. I think I have balanced values for the most part, but I do not pass judgment on those who throw everything into a bid for a particular achievement and define themselves in the narrow light of an all consuming endeavor. They are heroic and deserve their hard won respect.
People hate Sky for droning on about how competitive the upper reaches of the airline industry are and what an expensive thing it is to lose in a campaign for a top spot, and I think he is mostly right about that and how competitive it is at the top, but I also believe that 1) if you want to win in something you have to throw everything into the fight and not worry about the odds and 2) the airline biz is no worse or better than many other highly-competitive field. But it is a bit of a paradox that winning requires some blindness.
Although I am competitive by nature I found my limits early enough to put winning for the sake of winning aside in my life and I concentrated on other things like spiritual development and charity work. Later I realized my career was being neglected and I went back to school and started pushing for personal success. I think I have balanced values for the most part, but I do not pass judgment on those who throw everything into a bid for a particular achievement and define themselves in the narrow light of an all consuming endeavor. They are heroic and deserve their hard won respect.
People hate Sky for droning on about how competitive the upper reaches of the airline industry are and what an expensive thing it is to lose in a campaign for a top spot, and I think he is mostly right about that and how competitive it is at the top, but I also believe that 1) if you want to win in something you have to throw everything into the fight and not worry about the odds and 2) the airline biz is no worse or better than many other highly-competitive field. But it is a bit of a paradox that winning requires some blindness.
There is a definite price to be paid for being determined. Throwing everything in to the endeavor can increase ones odd but can also include loosing; wife, children, friends, QOL, financial security and in the end you could still be left with an empty bag for your efforts.
The good guy most definitely does not win every time. Determination does not assure a certainty of outcome. Right now there is a new hire at a major airline who at 45 has given everything to his/her career and will be tossed out onto the street once oil hits $140 a barrel.
Aviation is especially cruel since after a point experience dose not matter. Once kicked out we all have to start out at zero with a new company as if we were a 26 year old new FO.
Determination can have an impact on ones chances but also it can be highly costly.
SKyHigh
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