hindsight2020

Holy baby out with the bathwater batman...Are you serious? Amortization matters. Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. You can't self-actualize if you're starving or sick. It's not an opinion brother, it's life-limiting fact. I need 100 dollars today, not 50 today and 300 at age 60. 100 today.

If I can't afford a family when society's replacement are socio-biologically meant to be had (20-40), it literally doesn't matter that I have compensation in excess of the requirement in my flipping 50s. I was broke when it mattered, and that's all that mattered. It's all for naught. You can't put biology on hold for economic reasons. It is why the engineer is better off making more for the first 10 years, even if he/she was gone from the house as much as pilots are. Pilots are humans too. Ignore that at the expense of your relationships, and hope your medical is never compromised.

That doesn't even touch what other posters have already addressed, regarding the implicit cost of lack of compounding interest in purchases and investments, when one agrees to be lifetime-compensated in a heavily protracted manner, nevermind an occupation that relies on youthful health in old age.

This is what happens when people start looking at their work religiously or avocationally, as opposed to with an utilitarian value in mind. For a lot of us, flying for money is in the end, a job meant to provide an alternate time/money balance construct to meeting our family needs in ways a 9-5 pedestrian job traditionally does not offer. It's not good bad or indifferent, just an alternative. It works in certain combinations, and doesn't in others. It certainly is not for everybody, but discounting yourself outright from the demands of pedestrian life (the whole "it's shift work" canard) just because you fly airplanes during bankers hours, is not gonna do ya any favors. The world is still pedestrian I'm afraid. We're not exempt from it.

Of course, this is the same Country that pins child care issues against employee value and loyalty, where we have no paid maternity leave of consequence as a first world country, and you have to apologize and beg permission to go bury your parents. Screw that hyper-productive Protestant work ethic slave mentality. Airplanes still need to fly; it's time jobs catered to humans, not humans cater to jobs. Attitudes such as "it's shift work, you know the score" do not improve conditions, but it is a necessary attitude for those who *value being allowed to fly for money above all else. I got 99 problems, but *that ain't one of them.

Society as a whole does not benefit, when the only people who can afford the demands of a job are zealots. Colgan 3407. *micdrop*

Timbo

Yup, you've got to really, really want it. Lots of kids think they want it, heck, every 10 year old boy wants to fly a plane, right? But sticking it out for the duration takes a lot more than just wanting it.

Even highly educated, type A guys who join the military after completing 4 year college engineering degrees don't all make it through military pilot training. I think my UPT class started with 70 and graduated about 50.

I can't even tell you how many teenage kids I've talked to over the years who have said, "Yeah, I took some flying lessons but never got my Private..."

CBreezy

Are you finished?

I never once said people shouldn't be compensated appropriately, or even in the case of aviation, better. I'm fully in the, pay me more boat. My metric comment was regarding the missing of holidays, birthday, etc. This is a 24/7 career, the same as truckers, doctors, nurses, firemen and police. It's shift work and many of those shift workers make far far less than airline pilots after a few years. You have chosen to enter a career that never ceases operation knowing full well that it's never going to change, ever. If you get enough seniority, you will eventually get these days off.

The only other argument I was making that if you are driven enough and work hard enough, it will take 5 years to match the average salary of engineers and less than 5 more to recover the losses. Should the gap be less? Of course, but those numbers were also taken 5 years ago when airline first officer pay was significantly worse. At Republic, they are making nearly double what I made in the first year.

ClickClickBoom

You are way off base, those cops firemen and others have pensions and can work well past 65 if they so choose. My JR high school buddy retired from LE after a 30 year career and makes more in retirement than a 25 year 747 Captain flying the line. He also has a heart murmur that would be medically disqualifying in the airlines and is triathlon fit. Go figure...
If most guys spent as much effort outside aviation as they do inside, they would be very successful and handsomely compensated for their efforts.

ClickClickBoom

If you ever have kids you will understand. My college g/f, dad sent 2 of 3 kids to Ivy League colleges, cash out of pocket, as a Western Captain. While living in Malibu, Pt. Dume.

andrewtac

Makes more than a wide body Capt? He is extremely lucky and a statistical anomaly among cops. My father had a long career in LE, I know numerous police officers making no where near even a narrow body 12 year FO in retirement, maybe more like a regional pilot. While we are a physical away from finding a new career they are a bad traffic stop away from a dirt nap.

CBreezy

So, he wasn't a police officer, because they only make, on average $45,000 a year. I'm not talking about the medical system which is highly flawed.

A pilot can also work well past 65 if he/she wishes. I know many many people who've gone on to fly outside of 121 once they hit 65 and make a handsome amount of money.

andrewtac

I have three. All will get a year of GI Bill and a year of Hazelwood, the other two years they pay for first. I'd be complaining too if I had to spend 60k/year to send mine to school.

CBreezy

So, the example you're using is about a guy from a bygone era of aviation paying his kids' tuition in a bygone era of college education? The tuition cost for a student at Penn the year Western ceased operations was $11,000 a year including board. I could afford that as a senior regional Captain.

John Carr

More details needed........

What all did he do/does he do to garner that income in retirement?

DAL 747 CA "flying the line" at min guaranty = 210k/yr, with 15% DC, 241k.

UAL, 256k/yr. With 16% DC, 296k.