dojetdriver

Thanks for your recognition. Yep, plenty of non-minorites hired without PIC as well, no doubt. It was always public knowledge that someone who was in the Sons/Daughters program, former/current employee, or former intern would get an interview granted once they met the minimum time to apply for the job. UAL never hid that fact. I never saw them acknowledge the fact that a minority would get an interview just by meeting the mins to apply. If they chose to hire a son/daugher, intern, or employee over a minority, would that make them "racist"?

Out of curiousity, where did you see that UAL admitted hiring mistakes? I would pay money to watch NS, or anybody else that worked across the street from TK from the the late 90's-2001 ACTAULLY admit this.

Southerncowboyz

Good luck in life, DoJet. May there always be a tail wind at your back.

J

Herkdrv

Southern I HAVE WALKED IN THE SHOES OF A MINORITY! I am truly sorry that you have dealt with idiots in the past. I still stand by my post and say that if you have the hours, personality, and have not ****ed off the majority of pilots you have flown with in the past you will get hired. Do not let a very small percentage of jackasses give you the wrong impression about the industry. Anyway I wish you the best of luck. Don't lose faith.

Herk

dojetdriver

Thanks for your kind words, but I'm not feeling that it is sincere.

My the wind be at your back as well.

I was serious, did you ever hear about UAL admitting mistakes? Thats for my OWN curiosity, not arguing a point.

Southerncowboyz

Dojet,

Yes I have heard about them admitting they were wrong back in the 80's. This is just heresay, so take it with a grain of salt. I've never seen it in print that I can recall.

I had a United jumpseater that rode with me on a somewhat regular basis. I was a regional f/o and he wouldn't even as much as speak to me even though he too was an f/o. He flew Vipers in the military. He complained to my captain about United's, "questionable hiring practices" all the while cutting his eye at me. He was low time and couldn't get looked at until he got the viper time at and his commander was with United or something like that, and he got the nod.

As many times as he rode on my a/c he never spoke to me. Not once. I even joked with my captain after I rolled it on and put it in shallow reverse and held the nose off dissipating speed, basically showing off, that I wanted to say good bye to the folks to see if he would speak to me. He never did. As far as in print, no. I'm just telling you what this pompous whale driver told to me. I don't think they'll admit to it publicly because it'll open another can of worms about WHY they started doing it in the first place.

When I told you good luck, I meant it. You don't know how many times I've heard this stuff. You walk through an airport and you always feel like a poster child for AA no matter what credentials you have. Those men who folded their arms and turned their backs to me are just faceless men in the abyss of my mind, but I will always remember what they did. I will always remember the guys that went out of their way to make me feel unwelcome but each new person I meet is met with an open mind. For the record, I do not harbor any ill will, but I'll let you be the judge of that.

I know two minorities hired at United. One directly and one indirectly. Leroy Homer ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeRoy_Homer) a former Airforce pilot who paid the ultimate price on 9/11 and the other pilot from a former airline of mine. He was retired military, typed, multi-degreed and one of the finest men I've ever had the privilege of knowing. Anyway, take care of yourself ... and I mean that with no malice or sarcasm.

J

Please forgive any typos.

madfoxjay

Race SHOULDN'T matter, but often times, it does. I only asked the question for credibility sake. You made the point to say you were white in an earlier post. Then you tried to blow up this smoke screen saying you could be black. Since I shouldn't assume anything about you, I guess I won't assume you really meant what you said on this thread. In fact, you are probably a card carrying member of OBAP, NAACP, and The Black Panthers.

Seriously, while I AGREE that AA is not a long term solution to correct the ills of the past, it is a step. The two major flaws in the reasoning that AA is not warranted is: 1. All things being equal, the best man should get the job. 2. When you go for a job, you have just as good a chance as anyone else.

Heres a news flash for you, EVERYTHING ISN'T EQUAL. You have kids that come from deplorable school system competing with kids that have every resource imaginible at their school. You have kids that live in hostile communities competing with kids that live in gated communities. You have kids whose parents are professionals and provide a tangible reality of things that are possible competing with kids whose parents work a minimum wage job that they hope they never have to do. You have kids that have all the opportunities in the world competing against kids that are just struggling for hope. So if you are able to get training and a licence to fly, when it comes time for the interview, you had just as much of a chance to get this job as everyone else, right?

There are exceptions to the rule. There are exceptions to the rule. This was not typed twice as a mistake but to let those who only read and see what they want to see (not necessarily what's on the page) know that I know your initial circumstances are not always a final predictor of what and WHO you will become. But it does speak to the fact that if you don't know what it is to live that life or can be emphatic to it, how then are you able to stand on your gold soap box.

The second flaw in the argument is problematic because of a racial aspect not a racist aspect. (look up the two words if you didn't realize there was a difference) If you were a KC Chief's fan and you walked into a room with a mixed group of people and saw two empty seats in the same area. One was next to a guy with a Larry Johnson jersey on, and the other was next to some guy, more than likely, you would gravitate towards the person(you don't know either one from spit) you had some thing in common with. We all do it. Now let's go back to our interview in which the majority of the people in management and in the hiring process are non-minority. If I had two people in front of me that were equally qualified and presented themselves the same, what might I use to break the tie? Did he/she graduate from the same college as me? Are they from my hometown? What else might they have in common with ME. So if human nature stacks the card in one categories favor, how is it still equal? I AM NOT saying that it is wrong to hire somebody just because of race, whether it is someone white hiring another white because they feel more comfortable with them or hiring someone black because 95% of your jobs go to whites and you want some(5%) diversity. I am saying if you don't legislate the hiring process, how are you going to change human nature?

For all those who would attempt to label a certain race to my groups in the first example, anybody with an open mind knows that any race could be in either group. AA should not be as much about race as it is about helping those who are less fortunate. I didn't say you give it away. I clearly said help. And if they are not doing there part to help themselves, then they will reap what they sow.

calcapt

madfoxjay, I read twice and largely agree with your insight. You seem to be a person of wisdom and I can tell you passionately believe in what you write. I was having a conversation this very morning with my daughter about how with our upcoming presidential election the democratic party was in a good position to gain seats in Congress and in the Senate, and possibly the Presidency. We discussed the ideology of both parties and discussed in general terms how the democrats tend to lean toward social programs. By the way, GW is making me less a republican and more a democrat every day. It was a very interesting topic and we both essentially agreed that it would be a good thing for our country to spend less on war, space and other areas of waste and focus more on educating, feeding and caring for our less fortunate. The discussion then went to how do we do this without it turning into a big fraudulent program that is taken advantage of by lazy and unmotivated people that just want a hand out. We agreed that it is only a problematic few who make society stay away from helping more. There are certainly deserving people out there who need help that will never get it because of the perception that our welfare and assistance dollars go to fat lazy people who smoke, drink and live in trailer parks. I think there are some parallels in the AA world. Nobody wants to see another person because of race only step to the head of the line; conversely, I don't believe there are many people out there that wouldn't want to make it a level playing field for hard working minorities that just want a chance. I think it is those on the far right or left that take away from the majority in the middle that would otherwise make some progress with equality. The other big question in this whole equasion is how do you make our population equal? Just looking around my neighborhood there are BMWs, Nissans, big houses, smaller houses and all sorts of things that make people different. Obviously, no two incomes are the same. The Doctor makes more than the accountant, and they all make more than me. Some have Rolex watches and I have a Casio. Some can afford a pool and others go to the YMCA. The question is, how do we approach the idea of equality? There are so many variables in life that it is almost impossible to have two individuals the same in any respect. A black man may have an uncle who works at a place he wants to work and therefore it may be easier for him to land a job there over say a Phillipino who knows nobody on the inside. A hispanic female might have an employment advantage to someone who wants a female worker with spanish speaking skills. Does that make the Vietnamese male seeking a job disadvantaged? My point is there are endless variables that in my opinion make it mpossible to have an equal society. I see the injustice in some cases but I don't see how you can legislate society in these areas. I will likely never get hired into a job where I don't fit. A chinese laundry would likely hire someone they felt comfortable with, probably another chinese individual, to work there and I understand that. I understand the airlines are a different animal and don't mean to suggest that a chinese laundry hiring policy should be adopted at UAL or CAL. The problems exist obviously, I just don't see any magic solutions so that everybody is happy. For everybody that gets something in life there are probably many more that don't. Those people will obviously resent their plight and society will hear about it in a lawsuit, discrimination complaint or a woe-be-me sad song to anyone who will listen. madfoxjay, I like you and appreciate your dedication and compassion for others. In a spirit of friendship, I am freely admitting to you that my maiden name is not Ramirez and I am not a member of the Black Panthers. The OBAP and NAACP membership questions will have to remain a secret for now. You know, I bet you are one hell of a pilot!

madfoxjay

I have looked into the mirror and told myself many times how good a pilot I am and I have yet to disagree with myself. Now, if I can just convince everybody else.

How do we all get along or move toward an equal society? The answer is..............WE CAN'T. This is a problem beyond the capability of man. We are talking about a problem that has existed since the beginning of time. While we may have made some major advances in technology, science, medicine, etc., the way in which we treat those who are not like us is pretty much the same. The only way it can be truly solved is through the will of God. (insert your version of the supreme being here)

Does that mean we should give up? Of course not. I would compare it to trying to be perfect. Everyone knows you can't be perfect, but you should strive for it nonetheless.

Since the problem with inequality is multifaceted, the solution has to be also. I don't have the answers but I think you have to start with a basic level of respect for everyone. Now depending on what they do will determine whether they lose or gain respect in my camp. However, I try to at least respect the differences in people.

I wouldn't want to fly with someone who didn't qualify to be in that position. Hell, that is my A$$ on the line as well. But I have also flown with guys that have left me wondering how in the hell did they get in this cockpit. Either way, a good dose of skepticism is good until they prove themselves.

Calcapt, you are right in saying that it is those that swing to the extreme that makes the helping of others so difficult. You don't pass it out like candy, nor do you hoard it. But they are the ones making the most noise, so in turn, nothing substantial gets done. Just a lot of rhetoric.

Tailwinds to you good man and may your days off be plentiful.

calcapt

Amen, Amen and Amen

CoulditBe

I thought this an interesting topic so I chose this as my first post.

Affrimative Action or Equality in Hiring, the two are not synonomus. What bothers me the most about this topic is basically selfishness. Selfishness on the part of those that think that solely because of their minority status (Black, White, Male, Female, Straight, Gay, whatever) it is an entitlement to preferential treatment. It is unfortunate that our country embraces PREFERENCE as a cultural phenomenon. Simply put it is called GREED. "I want what you have because I am not satisified with what I have."

Time after time I see people use the discrimination card simply because their ego was bruised. People tout that the BEST PERSON should get the job and when they define BEST obviously they are using themselves as the standard to which all are measured. This is where we as a people and sometimes as a country shoot ourselves in the foot.

Am I less of a pilot because I was not in the military? Flew Corporate? Commuters? Army Navy Airforce or Marines? Cargo?
2000 PIC ME CIVILIAN vs 2000 SIC Military SIC? Active vs Guard?

Perception is anything and attitude is everything.

Next time you are in a newhire class, ask yourselves what qualifications you bring to the table and then look around the room and realize you are not the top dog in the class. Think about it!

God Bless