Joel Payne

Some how, most folks forgot the old saying "The obejective of an airline is NOT to serve the customer, their objective IS to drive the other airlines out of business".

SitBackRelax

Interesting, then, that upstart airlines that pay lower salaries and cherry pick routes have failed over and over and over in the past. The legacy airlines have always been able to wring them dry and one by one they join the ash heap. Yet somehow, even though there's 'absolutely nothing new' about the way JetBlue has approached it, they're a success? Riiiight.

And since Southwest was mentioned, how do they fit in, now that they're pretty much leading the industry in just about every way? What does that say to the people who were squawking this same stuff about them 15 years ago?

Look, even setting aside the presumptiousness of "speaking for the majority of non-JB pilots" and telling an entire group of pilots not only that we don't know what we're doing but what we should do... What gets me about this whole argument is that it boils down to "Don't tell me about economics, market forces, deregulation, technology, bad management practices in the industry, capitalism, enjoying your job, or human nature -- IT'S YOUR FAULT I DON'T HAVE AS MUCH MONEY AS I WANT"

Nobody wants anyone else to be out of a job. Yes, JB will most definitely have its time in the barrel at some point. And the legacies will come out of this long-inevitable shake-up looking very different -- they'll streamline, reorganize, redefine their strengths, and find their new niches, and people will go on flying from A to B. There will be pain, but there won't be pilots starving on the street. Pilot salaries will probably never be as relatively high as they once were, that's just a fact. But this blame game is counter-productive bordering on pathetic. We should all fight for fair compensation -- with that I wholeheartedly agree. But to ignore the big picture is, well... ignorant. A better debate might be over what exactly is fair compensation, given all these other factors. And someone who honestly says that they can't enjoy this job for less than $250K / year has probably made a very bad career choice, in my opinion.

P.S. A spell-checker would not have changed "weather" to "whether"

Vito

Sitbackrelax,

You make some valid points, and you hit the nail on the head, what is fair compensation? The problem is that Neelman and alot of JB people think they've de-coded the "holy grail" of airline profitability. I've seen Neelman on CNBC touted as some genuis and some of my JB buddies have bought into the "its a new world" brainwashing. Bottom line, at "Big Brown" we're trying to get a new contract with a nice pay raise, and because there are pilots out there working for half of what we make today, we're told we don't warrant a pay raise! Soon Virgin will hit the scene and if those guys slap a tv in the back of their seats, and pay their pilots 1/3 less than you people will fly them to Florida for less than the cost of the cab-fare to get to the airport, and the downward spiral continues. I hope you guys work hard to "raise the bar" but personally after Neelman showed his true colors with those ER-190 pay scales I doubt it.

captain_drew

Yea spelling is not my fortie, [/QUOTE]


And it is forte not “fortie”. . but I understand that French is not everyone’s forte <G>

And while class is in session. .adult people certainly OUGHT to know the difference between how to use their and there . .jeeze. . THAT -and 35 sentence paragraphs is enough to drive an English minor berserk <G>

bluebrother

you bring up an interesting point regarding "negotiating". In hindsite who has been the bigger fool, ALPA negotiating unsustainable payrates/workrules or incompetent airline management agreeing to them?

if our rates are based on managements assessements, then what are ALPA'S UNITED'S or USAIR'S A-320 payrates based on??( now that jetblue pilots make more)

if i were you i would not be "concerned" about the trend at jetblue. YOU SHOULD be worried what trends are being set by your BANKRUPT LEGACY CARRIER'S. (all who's pilots are, and have been "part of the process".)

JayDub

100% of our profit sharing goes into our 401K. That is to say, we elect what funds our profit sharing go into and we can pull out of any fund at any time for no penalty. You can even withdraw your money from 401K, but I am sure you are well aware of the tax penalties associated.

Not nit-picking, just want to make sure a major point isn't over looked.

Respectfully,

JayDub

Orca

Sure sure Meworry!

It is the market, the missmanagement, and people who will fly for less! At what wage will you still be happy to fly a jet?

Good luck!

bluebrother

well now it depends on what the ALPA pilots at delta and northwest do. the united and usair ALPA pilots have shown us what their happy with, "flying a jet"........

Fly4Beer

While I was getting my masters degree, a professor made a great observation. The day the airlines stopped paying travel agents commissions and created on-line ticketing and on-line ticket sites (ie Orbitz) was the day they created their own demise. They succeeded in teaching the flying public how to search the web for the cheapest fares and book the fare that saved them $5 over the next guy. In fact it taught the public that if they wait till the last minute then they could get an even cheaper fare. THAT happened way before JetBlue was on the ramp at JFK. That one decision led to passengers refusing to pay $1200 to fly NYC to LAX. JetBlue merely figured out a way to take advantage of that.

As far as pilot pay and benefits, there are a whole lotta USAir, UAL, AAL furloughees that JetBlue is taking off the streets. You know the guys ALPA and the top 25% in each of the legacy carriers has forgotten about to save their own pensions! I am fresh out of the military so I am new to this, but trust me, if FedEx and UPS would hire every available pilot, nobody would be having this discussion and we all would be able to stand together. But as it stands now, the ones who ***** the most are the ones who are high enough up the seniority ladder not to worry about getting furloughed. To them it’s better that they keep their $250K+/year and 90hrs/mo while their fellow union brothers collect unemployment. How is that protecting the profession?

Lastly, while every JB pilot agrees that both the 190 pay and the upper pay-scale at JB need work, Neeleman at least kept the 190 mainline and didn't sell out to a regional. These 190 pilots of today are 320 Capts in 2-3 years. (Are there any Comair or Eagle pilots who can say the same?) Let's do some math; E190 pilots can expect ~37,000 the first year and ~72,000 the second. That’s ~109K for 2 years. The best one can make at UPS in two years is ~27,000 and ~76,000 (~105K).

Am I way off track?

Vito

Fly for beer
In a word "yes!' You did well at UPT and was assigned a fighter,an A-10, I presume...there are lots of 135 drivers who would give their "left one" to sit in a Hog....a seat you worked damn hard to earn and deserved due to your greater skill and aptitude. Now, pretend one day your commander tells you He wants you to fly alot more, do 5 deployments to the sand-box a year, and by the way lower your rank/pay one grade lower! He tells you if you don't like it theres 1500 "135/C-130/C-17 pilots out there willing to fly your A-10...does this sound fair? We all worked hard to get to where we are, and in a few short years due to 19 Al Qiada scumbags, and alot of our fellow pilots who will "Fly for food" our profession is being eroded and marginalized. I'm from Jersey and my neighbor was so proud how she bought a ticket on crappy Spirit Airlines from Atlantic City to Florida for $59!!!!! How the Fu#@ can an airline make money selling a ticket for $59?? I could'nt drive further than Virginia for $59 worth of gas!!
Alot of these pilots secretly seem to resent the pilots from Delta, United, AA (legacies) for some reason they group them together and label them "dinosaurs, greedy, old, out of touch" all I know is the bar is being constantly lowered by all of us who take any flying job irregardless of pay and benefits. Soon "Virgin America" will hit the scene, flying A-320's and paying commuter salaries...and maybe we'll hear Some of these Jet Blue guys or even Spirit pilots *****in about how they'll have to take pay-cuts to compete with Virgin! meanwhile management and all the lawyers and bean-counters are making the big bucks and laughing to the bank
Just my opinion,
Good Luck, and thanks for your service to our nation