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Originally Posted by UpAndAway
(Post 2111285)
What's your solution, then, other than proclaiming your goal is to make people's lives miserable simply because they don't want to endure the same lifestyle that pilots complain about on these very forums? Feelings are definitely not hurt, but five minutes and an internet connection is all it takes to realize the current model is broken.
Also, which you seem to ignore, how do Regional pilots get by every day? Why does this not apply to Regional FO's? How are they managing on the same experience? You just give them a pass because that's the way it is? Are the lives in the back of the plane not as important on a Regional flight? So, I can instruct people to fly around in familiar airspace and buzz around the pattern in a 172 until 1,500 hours, then that's okay for me to start as a FO at a Regional? That's all I have to do? Regarding European airlines, the difference is pay. Many of their ab-initio programs are sponsored, too. Airlines like British Airways pay back the entire cost of training for graduates of their ab-initio program who stay with the airline. That's a great incentive and last time I checked BA flights weren't dropping out of the sky. BA Ab-initio is a MUCH more stringent program than Gateway! T |
Originally Posted by UpAndAway
(Post 2111285)
What's your solution, then, other than proclaiming your goal is to make people's lives miserable simply because they don't want to endure the same lifestyle that pilots complain about on these very forums? Feelings are definitely not hurt, but five minutes and an internet connection is all it takes to realize the current model is broken.
Also, which you seem to ignore, how do Regional pilots get by every day? Why does this not apply to Regional FO's? How are they managing on the same experience? You just give them a pass because that's the way it is? Are the lives in the back of the plane not as important on a Regional flight? So, I can instruct people to fly around in familiar airspace and buzz around the pattern in a 172 until 1,500 hours, then that's okay for me to start as a FO at a Regional? That's all I have to do? Regarding European airlines, the difference is pay. Many of their ab-initio programs are sponsored, too. Airlines like British Airways pay back the entire cost of training for graduates of their ab-initio program who stay with the airline. That's a great incentive and last time I checked BA flights weren't dropping out of the sky. Solution to what? You keep saying something is broken. The only thing that is not right is the pay at the regionals for FOs but as we hire EXPERIENCED pilots those regional FOs move to the left seat. Left seat pay at some are pretty decent. Not MAJOR pay but decent. Why should you skip that over those guys with experience? You keep saying I'm ignoring something but I'm not. The experience you gain as a regional FO is important. I don't think you want to hear that. You keep saying you get the same experience at the majors. No you should have that experience BEFORE YOU GET HERE. You are putting down every regional pilot by saying you can get the same experience flying for a major after flying a 172. You have no idea what experience you get with a regional. The system isn't broken it's the pay for regional FOs that need to go up. This program needs to be shut down and it will. |
Originally Posted by ZipZap
(Post 2106556)
I got past the first step of JetBlue's ab initio "Gateway Select" pilot training programming.
I knew the program got a lot of hate here ("I would never fly with someone who came from this program.") when it was first announced, so thought you all would be interested to put a virtual face to it! I went to a good 4 year college, and currently work in a well compensated technology-oriented field. But I have always loved aviation, and frequently wonder if I should have focused on that instead. In college, I took the Navy's ASTB (aviation standardized test) and did very well (think 95th+ percentile good), was accepted into OCS with a pilot slot, but was ultimately told I could not attend due to some unfortunate medical issues. I thought the aviation "bug" in me was put out then, but when I heard about Jetway Select I could not avoid applying to it. So what does this wise board think? Good idea? Bad idea? Is this the worst thing to happen to piloting in America? The full email is below. Oh and were you military? Because I'm not sure how you got a pilot slot and accepted into OCS? Are you saying you didn't go into officer candidate school because you couldn't fly? Oh and don't you think your unfirtunate medical issues will prevent you from obtaining a first class medical or do you plan to lie to the examiner about it? |
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111591)
Solution to what? You keep saying something is broken. The only thing that is not right is the pay at the regionals for FOs but as we hire EXPERIENCED pilots those regional FOs move to the left seat.
The second broken aspect is the Regional/Major divide. If you're not experienced enough to be a FO of an E190 at JetBlue at 1,500, then you're not experienced to be a FO a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500. The basis of your argument cannot seriously be "Well, the Regionals are an experience building stepping stone so it's okay". The American public deserve better. I have no doubt you build valuable experience at the Regionals, but this whole system only exists to save shareholders money, not to train pilots for the Majors.
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111591)
Why should you skip that over those guys with experience? You keep saying I'm ignoring something but I'm not. The experience you gain as a regional FO is important. I don't think you want to hear that.
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111591)
You keep saying you get the same experience at the majors. No you should have that experience BEFORE YOU GET HERE. You are putting down every regional pilot by saying you can get the same experience flying for a major after flying a 172. You have no idea what experience you get with a regional. The system isn't broken it's the pay for regional FOs that need to go up. This program needs to be shut down and it will.
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111591)
And so since you work in a well compensated field you believe you should be paid the same as a new hire in aviation? So again your better than all the regional guys out there who are busting there ass everyday? Are you too good to fly the regionals because you have the money to pay 125k?.
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Originally Posted by dogismycopilot
(Post 2111352)
While this may be true today, this will not always be the case. A NYT article released today says "the number of pilots the majors are going to need in the coming years will burn through our entire work force unless there’s some sort of intervention." What will JetBlue, Spirit, and the majors do if this is the case? It's going to get really interesting. While I don't agree with the way JetBlue has handled the whole situation (keeping ALPA out of the loop), Ab Initio programs are going to happen. I am sure the majors are looking for more sustainable supplies of pilots. I wouldn't be suprised to see the majors start similar programs, the exception being an extended stop at one of the c-scale regionals along the way. Funny, most of those major airline unions would like to bring their RJ flying in house. What would their Ab Initio pipeline look like if they did? Is it a better strategy to alienate the new Ab Initio pilots or bring them into the fold as full fledged Air Line pilots? Leave it to JetBlue to choose the "contrarian" way forward. I am interested to see how this is going to play out.
Why would they do this? We have 5000 applications on file with probably 3000+ from experienced guys whether it be military, regional or corporate. We plan on having 5000 pilots with little or no retirements. We have 3000+ pilots now. Seems to me that we will have plenty in the pipeline for us. What's not happening is the people actually becoming pilots in the first place whether it be the expense the time or the low pay at the regionals. My question is if the ab initio programs are going to take hold then who will fly the Regionals? The people that can't afford a slot? I don't think so. The pay will have to come up on the regional side because there won't be anyone to fly those planes to get passengers to the mainline flights. That's how it will change not this abomination which is a slap in the face to the regional, military and corporate guys busting there ass every day. |
Originally Posted by UpAndAway
(Post 2111662)
Your solution to the industry expectation that those FO seats at Regionals are diminishing. Then what happens? Who will the Majors recruit then? If the rest of the economy is any indication, your future FO's will be from China. FO pay at the Regionals is perhaps the biggest obstacle, I agree.
The second broken aspect is the Regional/Major divide. If you're not experienced enough to be a FO of an E190 at JetBlue at 1,500, then you're not experienced to be a FO a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500. The basis of your argument cannot seriously be "Well, the Regionals are an experience building stepping stone so it's okay". The American public deserve better. I have no doubt you build valuable experience at the Regionals, but this whole system only exists to save shareholders money, not to train pilots for the Majors. You are clearly not reading what I'm typing. I have repeatedly said I don't think any graduate from an ab-initio program should get a slot from the Majors ahead of a more experienced and qualified pilot. :rolleyes: You are red-herring the hell out of my posts. Only I'm not putting down Regional pilots, because I didn't say that. I literally had to re-read my posts to verify I didn't say those things. I never said you get the same experience going directly to the majors. I never said you get the same experience after flying a 172. I merely asked, for example, why you're comfortable with someone flight instructing in a 172 (or whatever), and then piloting a CRJ at a Regional at 1,500. Why is that okay to you? I seriously have no idea how that could quite possibly be your reaction to his post. But that's exactly what your saying. Your wanting to go into this program and you will come out with only limited experience training basic maneuvers to students. That's not experience. The flying public deserves better? How are they getting better if your in the right seat of a major? They aren't. Piloting an RJ in the left seat with 1500 of a smaller plane is a hell of a lot easier to handle than you behind the controls of a 100 to 200 seat airplane? Let's take an example. The Colgan flight that crashed in buffalo. The captain should not have been a captain and the FO had limited experience. Unfortunately the took souls with them. But only a few. Are you suggesting that it would have been the same if they were in a 737? With a 130 on board no. I can guarantee you that experience would have prevented that entire thing. With the icing the weather not raising the flaps that actually was giving the aircraft the only lift it had left. That's the experience that you can't get flying a 172 and unfortunately have to get at the regionals. Why don't nascar drivers start out in daytona and have to start on go karts? Because they learn the nuances of driving. Anticipation reaction things a book and a half asked teacher can't teach you. |
Originally Posted by UpAndAway
(Post 2111662)
Your solution to the industry expectation that those FO seats at Regionals are diminishing. Then what happens? Who will the Majors recruit then? If the rest of the economy is any indication, your future FO's will be from China. FO pay at the Regionals is perhaps the biggest obstacle, I agree
The second broken aspect is the Regional/Major divide. If you're not experienced enough to be a FO of an E190 at JetBlue at 1,500, then you're not experienced to be a FO a SkyWest CRJ at 1,500. The basis of your argument cannot seriously be "Well, the Regionals are an experience building stepping stone so it's okay". The American public deserve better. I have no doubt you build valuable experience at the Regionals, but this whole system only exists to save shareholders money, not to train pilots for the Majors. [/QUOTE] You are not a pilot and are disregarding every single response to this from pilots. You need experience to fly. Which you need to work on over a few years. If you have no doubt that you build valuable experience then why should there be this god awful program? This system existed before regionals were flying jets. You got experience flying smaller turbo prop planes and kept building on that. Now regionals have crjs and embs and that was because no one had the foresight to see that the ceos decided to cut major jobs and replace the routes with the cheaper regional guys. You are clearly not reading what I'm typing. I have repeatedly said I don't think any graduate from an ab-initio program should get a slot from the Majors ahead of a more experienced and qualified pilot. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE] Then why aren't you taking flying lessons getting your ratings, becoming an instructor then getting a job at a regional going to the left seat then in 4-5 years get on with the majors? You are red-herring the hell out of my posts. Only I'm not putting down Regional pilots, because I didn't say that. I literally had to re-read my posts to verify I didn't say those things. I never said you get the same experience going directly to the majors. I never said you get the same experience after flying a 172. I merely asked, for example, why you're comfortable with someone flight instructing in a 172 (or whatever), and then piloting a CRJ at a Regional at 1,500. Why is that okay to you? [/QUOTE] Well who do you think is going to fly at the regionals? OK then we should not let any pilot fly at a regional until they have 5000 hours. How's that? Dies that make you feel safer for the public. You came on here and asked a question. Myself and most of the other guys told you how bad this program is yet you continue to try and justify yourself by arguing against guys who have been in this industry for years. I'm sorry you don't like what we have to say I seriously have no idea how that could quite possibly be your reaction to his post.[/QUOTE] |
Originally Posted by UpAndAway
(Post 2110432)
No one has said experience shouldn't matter and no one has proposed that question except you, for obvious reasons. It is, however, reasonable for someone to go into the right seat after a rigorous and airline focused training program, with the guidance and leadership of an experienced Captain. Many global, established airlines with excellent safety ratings seem to think so.
There mere existence of the Regionals proves this as they use this exact same model and operate thousands of flights daily, safely. Where did anyone say a graduate of this program would be comfortable handling all situations? No amount of experience and hours can guarantee that. Why is it acceptable to spend the same amount of money and become a FO on a CRJ but not an E190? Same airspace, same airports, same responsibilities for human lives. As someone who truly wants to join the industry, this is probably one of the most disheartening things I've read in a while. Focus your anger and frustration at airline Management who greedily created this horrible system (have you seen their salaries recently?), not those trying to be a part of change. You did say this right? That's it's "reasonable" to go into the right seat after a rigorous training program with an experienced captain. So should every captain here have to keep an eye on you? What if one of the captains makes a mistake? Would he want some 1500 hour 172 pilot with some simulator time watching his back or an ex regional captain, an ex military pilot or an ex coorpotprate captain? I know which I would choose. This program was not created to fix a fantasy pilot shortage. It's sole purpose is to hire a no time guy that owes everything to JB and would go as far as to cross a picket line if need be. |
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111681)
You did say this right? That's it's "reasonable" to go into the right seat after a rigorous training program with an experienced captain. So should every captain here have to keep an eye on you? What if one of the captains makes a mistake? Would he want some 1500 hour 172 pilot with some simulator time watching his back or an ex regional captain, an ex military pilot or an ex coorpotprate captain? I know which I would choose. This program was not created to fix a fantasy pilot shortage. It's sole purpose is to hire a no time guy that owes everything to JB and would go as far as to cross a picket line if need be.
Regarding the pilot shortage, I'm only going off of what I read. Head of ALPA, Regional Airline Association, Boeing, etc. all seem to think there's one coming. There seems to be no shortage of applicants for Majors now but that's projected to change.
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111681)
But that's exactly what your saying. Your wanting to go into this program and you will come out with only limited experience training basic maneuvers to students. That's not experience. The flying public deserves better? How are they getting better if your in the right seat of a major? They aren't. Piloting an RJ in the left seat with 1500 of a smaller plane is a hell of a lot easier to handle than you behind the controls of a 100 to 200 seat airplane?.
I cannot comment on the CRJ piloting statement as I've never piloted one.
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111681)
You are not a pilot and are disregarding every single response to this from pilots. You need experience to fly. Which you need to work on over a few years. If you have no doubt that you build valuable experience then why should there be this god awful program?
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111681)
Then who's going to fly the regional aircraft if all we do is hire directly into the majors.
Well who do you think is going to fly at the regionals? OK then we should not let any pilot fly at a regional until they have 5000 hours. How's that? Dies that make you feel safer for the public.
Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2111681)
Then why aren't you taking flying lessons getting your ratings, becoming an instructor then getting a job at a regional going to the left seat then in 4-5 years get on with the majors?
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Originally Posted by comrcap
(Post 2111407)
Ab initio is pay for training. Period. Don't do it.
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