Originally Posted by grim04
(Post 2112566)
Not true. I'm glad I got the experience at the regional level. Yes it was low pay for a couple of years but then the captains moved on and I took their spot. There are no shortcuts for experience like that. This is the same as these millennials coming out of college crying unfairness because they don't want to start at an entry level position.
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Closing Arguments:
1. Regionals are designed to wip up a fresh 1500 hr 172 CFI into an Airline Pilot. The regional Check Airman have dealt with scenario for years with these type of experience; you know, how to land a jet for the first time. What is de-icing? Radio calls in JFK, flow in ORD. So, go to a regional that will gladly teach you this, not buy yourself into a Major airline that will expect you to know all these things on day one of IOE. 2. Your typical civilian new hire at a Major airline is regional guy used and abused for years. The mere fact that they are out of the regionals makes their attitude much more pleasant. You bought your job, it makes you a consumer, which gives you entitlement. If your entitlement expectations are not met, you develop a self destructive attitude, which will be a pain to deal with from the training department all the way to the line pilot. 3. You are buying yourself a job, no questions about it. Your average regional pilot did not. They bought the flight training, worked their way up to the regionals without any guarantee that their seniority number is reserved at a major. Only thing that will get them there is merit. You are bypassing everything by just writing a 125k check. Imagine starting a 4 day trip where the captain had to slum it out at the regional level, network and work their way into B6, while you, bought your job. Imagine the level of respect from your peers. 4. If B6 is worried about a pilot shortage, then maybe they should stop ignoring high time regional CAs and LCAs who are deemed untrainable. Lots of us will be happy in any seat if our QOL and paycheck is better. B6 will have a net pool of 3000 candidates, which is not a shortage. There's no way around it, you bought yourself a job, and it's not even guaranteed. Idotic is not even correct world to describe this type of action. Get a job using your own merit, if you have none then.... |
This is still a many-year investment. The pilot shortage crisis will peak in five years if nothing is done to change things, and this ab-initio program will take at least that long. You will emerge into a very changed world. JB will likely have been swallowed up, or will have grown big enough to start their own low-paying subsidiary for new pilots.
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Originally Posted by scottm
(Post 2114648)
This is still a many-year investment. The pilot shortage crisis will peak in five years if nothing is done to change things, and this ab-initio program will take at least that long. You will emerge into a very changed world. JB will likely have been swallowed up, or will have grown big enough to start their own low-paying subsidiary for new pilots.
Don't expect any respect from your peers for choosing this path. GP |
Originally Posted by GuppyPuppy
(Post 2114880)
That's a huge ($125,000.00) gamble. What if JB isn't JB in 4 years? What if you don't make it? Do you get any type of refund at any point along the way if you opt out? Will you get any health benefits during your 4 years of training?
Don't expect any respect from your peers for choosing this path. GP
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Originally Posted by jayme
(Post 2112215)
As an Airbus captain (not at JetBlue) I fly with lots of great FOs and a few crappy ones. I find there is very little correlation between their experience and their performance. Almost none, really.
If my company had a program like this, I'd never give a graduate of the program a hard time... Unless they sucked. It sounds to me like a lot of people here are just frustrated that somebody else might have an easier path to the airlines than they did. I've read this whole thread and basically came to the same conclusion as you. |
Originally Posted by Swedish Blender
(Post 2106875)
A Navy physical and FAA physical are exclusive of each other with very different standards.
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Originally Posted by Pilot41
(Post 2108045)
Not only no, H*!! no. There is zero guarantee of a job: what if they are bought, what if they merge, what if they just decide to do away with the program, what if they go bankrupt, etc.
I'll give ya a hint, they don't have an answer for any of these questions. |
Originally Posted by jayme
(Post 2112215)
It sounds to me like a lot of people here are just frustrated that somebody else might have an easier path to the airlines than they did.
Make no mistake... this program is to reduce pilot pay by saying that someone far less experienced, far less educated can do the same job. A company doesn't really care if you get violated because it is YOUR license, not theirs. The company will defend themselves saying they had operational control, the pilots had training, and of course all the legal language in the operations manual always makes the pilot culpable. Lastly, what makes a pilot experienced is not hours necessarily -- it's the type of experiences he has had (e.g. emergencies). Airlines are using statistical observations to say that operations are far safer now, airplanes are safer, and thus the chance of an emergency occurring (with an inexperienced pilot) are very low. And in the event an emergency does occur, the company will always say that it was an emergency and that the pilot is to blame. From a legal standpoint, the company sits pretty if anything were to happen meanwhile people will have died. They can make all the arguments they want about the military taking inexperienced pilots but it's an apples to oranges comparison. The military persistently demands discipline and affords significant training opportunities (every flight includes training). I somehow doubt that these guys are going to go do 6 instrument approaches with touch and goes in the real airplane every month. I also doubt they will pay a small fortune to have them at the sims every month practicing emergency procedures. What they want is not impossible but it requires a great deal of money to do correctly and no airline will ever pour that much money into training. And one last point about discipline... in the military you are in a rank structure that is very real because it is re-enforced by military law. This promotes discipline whether the young pilot wants it or not. Usually the Aircraft Commander is not just the guy who signs for the airplane, but also the guy who outranks his copilot and rest of the crew. Not to mention, performance in the cockpit is also tied to various records kept on the pilot all of which are actionable by the unit commander. The civilian world simply has no equivalent -- not even close. A chief pilot is about the closest you can get but he has no real authority over the young pilot. This is because no civilian is above another and all employment is totally optional. Remember, a civilian can have a bad attitude and simply quit his job. They can also be extremely undisciplined and unruly in their job until they decide to quit or go elsewhere. So, I wish the JB would quit making the military comparison. The truth is they are navigating uncharted waters with this programme. |
Well I think this is the first valid argument against the program: It is designed to defeat the supply/demand trend that currently favors labor.
For that reason, and that reason alone, ALPA should try to stop it. However, demonizing the participants is not the way to go, especially if you are going to use fallacious arguments to support your position. It makes you all look dumb and petty. |
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