Kalitta Air now accepting FO applications
08-18-2016, 12:55 AM
#1931
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 19
HercDriver, as a fellow k4 operator, I ask YOU to quit throwing ME under the bus on a public forum!
You are not helping OUR cause. WE are all entitled to our OWN opinions, but posting YOUR selfish demands reeks of the same propaganda that company management representatives are spewing in order to turn US against OURSELVES. YOU are not a company management representative, so quit talking like one. Check YOURSELF before you wreck OURSELVES!
Remember, a duty limitation specified in a collective bargaining agreement does not prevent a crew-member(s) from voluntarily exceeding that limitation if they so choose. Yet it also provides a crew-member legal protection in the event one is being held hostage by the company to a prolonged duty period and that crew-member is paired with a plane-load of company henchmen who would rather die at the yoke than cancel a trip due to fatigue!
Remember, our FRMP (Fatigue Risk Management Program) does not allow a crew-member to forecast fatigue. That puts ME in a no-win situation if legal protection from a rock-solid collective bargaining agreement is not available. So, please, I ask YOU to cease jeopardizing MY right to bargain for a contract that will allow us ALL to protect ourselves as crew-members from the insidious effects of fatigue.
Respectfully and fraternally...
a k4 and 1224 brother
You are not helping OUR cause. WE are all entitled to our OWN opinions, but posting YOUR selfish demands reeks of the same propaganda that company management representatives are spewing in order to turn US against OURSELVES. YOU are not a company management representative, so quit talking like one. Check YOURSELF before you wreck OURSELVES!
Remember, a duty limitation specified in a collective bargaining agreement does not prevent a crew-member(s) from voluntarily exceeding that limitation if they so choose. Yet it also provides a crew-member legal protection in the event one is being held hostage by the company to a prolonged duty period and that crew-member is paired with a plane-load of company henchmen who would rather die at the yoke than cancel a trip due to fatigue!
Remember, our FRMP (Fatigue Risk Management Program) does not allow a crew-member to forecast fatigue. That puts ME in a no-win situation if legal protection from a rock-solid collective bargaining agreement is not available. So, please, I ask YOU to cease jeopardizing MY right to bargain for a contract that will allow us ALL to protect ourselves as crew-members from the insidious effects of fatigue.
Respectfully and fraternally...
a k4 and 1224 brother
08-18-2016, 02:58 AM
#1932
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
Originally Posted by bubba74
HercDriver, as a fellow k4 operator, I ask YOU to quit throwing ME under the bus on a public forum!
You are not helping OUR cause. WE are all entitled to our OWN opinions, but posting YOUR selfish demands reeks of the same propaganda that company management representatives are spewing in order to turn US against OURSELVES. YOU are not a company management representative, so quit talking like one. Check YOURSELF before you wreck OURSELVES!
Remember, a duty limitation specified in a collective bargaining agreement does not prevent a crew-member(s) from voluntarily exceeding that limitation if they so choose. Yet it also provides a crew-member legal protection in the event one is being held hostage by the company to a prolonged duty period and that crew-member is paired with a plane-load of company henchmen who would rather die at the yoke than cancel a trip due to fatigue!
Remember, our FRMP (Fatigue Risk Management Program) does not allow a crew-member to forecast fatigue. That puts ME in a no-win situation if legal protection from a rock-solid collective bargaining agreement is not available. So, please, I ask YOU to cease jeopardizing MY right to bargain for a contract that will allow us ALL to protect ourselves as crew-members from the insidious effects of fatigue.
Respectfully and fraternally...
a k4 and 1224 brother
You are not helping OUR cause. WE are all entitled to our OWN opinions, but posting YOUR selfish demands reeks of the same propaganda that company management representatives are spewing in order to turn US against OURSELVES. YOU are not a company management representative, so quit talking like one. Check YOURSELF before you wreck OURSELVES!
Remember, a duty limitation specified in a collective bargaining agreement does not prevent a crew-member(s) from voluntarily exceeding that limitation if they so choose. Yet it also provides a crew-member legal protection in the event one is being held hostage by the company to a prolonged duty period and that crew-member is paired with a plane-load of company henchmen who would rather die at the yoke than cancel a trip due to fatigue!
Remember, our FRMP (Fatigue Risk Management Program) does not allow a crew-member to forecast fatigue. That puts ME in a no-win situation if legal protection from a rock-solid collective bargaining agreement is not available. So, please, I ask YOU to cease jeopardizing MY right to bargain for a contract that will allow us ALL to protect ourselves as crew-members from the insidious effects of fatigue.
Respectfully and fraternally...
a k4 and 1224 brother
08-18-2016, 03:22 AM
#1933
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
My sources DC8driver... Cargopirate.... unimpeachable. I will be logged in to the Webinar... I will be more than glad to ask him if he said it. I am sure you do like the idea of merging.... more fodder to be stapled on the bottom of your list. If you are inferring that because you have Astar, Evergreen etc guys on your list now.... join the club half our list consists of such guys.
I am all for some semblance of pattern bargaining. The reality is that at some point in EVERY negotiation a point is reached where the "juice doesn't equal the squeeze" anymore....meaning anything further gained my cost more than its worth. Lets not forget you negotiate with a corporate entity with groups to be satisfied, we work for an individual who is beholden to no one not nearly the same thing. We will just have to agree to disagree.
As for release... its been nearly 4 months not a couple and we have the same pro company mediator that we had 9 years ago his opinion to the NMB carry's a ton of weight. this mediator actually told our NC.."5 years... you should be happy... have one group I have been mediating for nearly 10 years".... translation.... buckle up boys you aren't going anywhere.
disclaimer: Bubba74 is not part of these comments in anyway.
I am all for some semblance of pattern bargaining. The reality is that at some point in EVERY negotiation a point is reached where the "juice doesn't equal the squeeze" anymore....meaning anything further gained my cost more than its worth. Lets not forget you negotiate with a corporate entity with groups to be satisfied, we work for an individual who is beholden to no one not nearly the same thing. We will just have to agree to disagree.
As for release... its been nearly 4 months not a couple and we have the same pro company mediator that we had 9 years ago his opinion to the NMB carry's a ton of weight. this mediator actually told our NC.."5 years... you should be happy... have one group I have been mediating for nearly 10 years".... translation.... buckle up boys you aren't going anywhere.
disclaimer: Bubba74 is not part of these comments in anyway.
08-18-2016, 04:12 AM
#1934
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 30
DC8 Driver,
Wow are you clueless, the 24 in question is a 24 hour DUTY day NOT 24 days of work. No this contract betters Atlas on that by going to a 16 day month worth 64 hours. A fact I (K4 line pilot, paying dues to 1224) know because the company emailed and sail mailed a copy of the contract highlights to every K4 pilot. This is also how we know for a FACT it is DAN WELLS and DAN WELLS alone who will not sign the deal over this small detail that suits us and not him.
THE BARON, PAYING DUES FOR NO REPRESENTATION!
Wow are you clueless, the 24 in question is a 24 hour DUTY day NOT 24 days of work. No this contract betters Atlas on that by going to a 16 day month worth 64 hours. A fact I (K4 line pilot, paying dues to 1224) know because the company emailed and sail mailed a copy of the contract highlights to every K4 pilot. This is also how we know for a FACT it is DAN WELLS and DAN WELLS alone who will not sign the deal over this small detail that suits us and not him.
THE BARON, PAYING DUES FOR NO REPRESENTATION!
08-18-2016, 05:10 AM
#1935
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by The Baron
DC8 Driver,
Wow are you clueless, the 24 in question is a 24 hour DUTY day NOT 24 days of work. No this contract betters Atlas on that by going to a 16 day month worth 64 hours. A fact I (K4 line pilot, paying dues to 1224) know because the company emailed and sail mailed a copy of the contract highlights to every K4 pilot. This is also how we know for a FACT it is DAN WELLS and DAN WELLS alone who will not sign the deal over this small detail that suits us and not him.
THE BARON, PAYING DUES FOR NO REPRESENTATION!
Wow are you clueless, the 24 in question is a 24 hour DUTY day NOT 24 days of work. No this contract betters Atlas on that by going to a 16 day month worth 64 hours. A fact I (K4 line pilot, paying dues to 1224) know because the company emailed and sail mailed a copy of the contract highlights to every K4 pilot. This is also how we know for a FACT it is DAN WELLS and DAN WELLS alone who will not sign the deal over this small detail that suits us and not him.
THE BARON, PAYING DUES FOR NO REPRESENTATION!
No you mean the company sent out exactly what F and H advised them to send out....with the specific intention of causing disharmony within the pilot group and the union.
THAT IS F + H ALL THE WAY. Standard maneuver in their playbook.
The good news is:
if they feel they have turned enough pilots against the union they will actually agree to a TA. It won't be as good as you guys deserve or would have gotten if you had stayed strong.
Oh by the way: did your local union leadership specifically say it is Dan Wells and Dan Wells alone that won't sign the TA? Or is that FACT being inferred?
08-18-2016, 05:31 AM
#1936
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,411
The spirit of "local union oversight", on contracts, is to prevent predatory companies from shoving a substandard contract, under threat of job loss, on a particular pilot group. That is clearly not what is happening here. I would hear you much more clearly, and perhaps even agree with you folks arguing for Dan Wells, if you did two simple things. Suspend my Union dues and have your pilot group pay an assessment, forwarded to me, that will make up for 75% of what I am losing every month, that this contract does not get signed. I am more than willing to make a 25% sacrifice for you. Are you willing to make that same sacrifice for me? With the vastly superior numbers in your pilot ranks, all contributing as ONE, to the assessment, it should work out pretty close to equal.
If you are not willing to make this sacrifice for us, then you have absolutely no right to dictate to us about holding YOUR imaginary line in the sand. Will 1224 step up and support us or not? If not, then with all due respect, step off. Good luck to us all.
If you are not willing to make this sacrifice for us, then you have absolutely no right to dictate to us about holding YOUR imaginary line in the sand. Will 1224 step up and support us or not? If not, then with all due respect, step off. Good luck to us all.
Last edited by maxjet; 08-18-2016 at 05:48 AM.
08-18-2016, 06:15 AM
#1937
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by CargoPirate
THE COMPANY EMAILED AND SNAIL MAILED A COPY OF THE HIGHLIGHTS? Is that what you are saying/
No you mean the company sent out exactly what F and H advised them to send out....with the specific intention of causing disharmony within the pilot group and the union.
THAT IS F + H ALL THE WAY. Standard maneuver in their playbook.
The good news is:
if they feel they have turned enough pilots against the union they will actually agree to a TA. It won't be as good as you guys deserve or would have gotten if you had stayed strong.
Oh by the way: did your local union leadership specifically say it is Dan Wells and Dan Wells alone that won't sign the TA? Or is that FACT being inferred?
No you mean the company sent out exactly what F and H advised them to send out....with the specific intention of causing disharmony within the pilot group and the union.
THAT IS F + H ALL THE WAY. Standard maneuver in their playbook.
The good news is:
if they feel they have turned enough pilots against the union they will actually agree to a TA. It won't be as good as you guys deserve or would have gotten if you had stayed strong.
Oh by the way: did your local union leadership specifically say it is Dan Wells and Dan Wells alone that won't sign the TA? Or is that FACT being inferred?
As to wether Wells directly insulted our Chairman and our negotiators, YES HE DID. "Scumbags" was the word he used. Ask him. See if he admits it.
Wells can not be considered objective and should recuse himself from any dealings with the Kalitta Pilot group.
Last edited by goldfinger; 08-18-2016 at 06:21 AM. Reason: content
08-18-2016, 06:53 AM
#1938
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 30
CargoPirate,
The fact that you think K4 or myself is being advised by F&H is truly laughable and just shows again what you don't know about K4. Connie would NEVER pay a firm like F&H the rates they charge, you see its HIS company and He has used the same lawyer since the late 1980's. Also how would you feel if DAN WELLS would not sign off on your contract over a 24 duty day, (reduced from currently 30) when our pilot group doesnt even want to be reduced to Atlas' 20 extendable to 22. I think DAN WELLS is embraced that the new K4 contract will have our "scumbag" 767 pilots making over $107 dollars per hour MORE THAN, THATS RIGHT $107 PER HOUR MORE, the deserving Atlas 767 pilots!
THE BARON, PAYING DUES FOR NO REPRESENTATION
The fact that you think K4 or myself is being advised by F&H is truly laughable and just shows again what you don't know about K4. Connie would NEVER pay a firm like F&H the rates they charge, you see its HIS company and He has used the same lawyer since the late 1980's. Also how would you feel if DAN WELLS would not sign off on your contract over a 24 duty day, (reduced from currently 30) when our pilot group doesnt even want to be reduced to Atlas' 20 extendable to 22. I think DAN WELLS is embraced that the new K4 contract will have our "scumbag" 767 pilots making over $107 dollars per hour MORE THAN, THATS RIGHT $107 PER HOUR MORE, the deserving Atlas 767 pilots!
THE BARON, PAYING DUES FOR NO REPRESENTATION
08-18-2016, 07:05 AM
#1939
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by goldfinger
You make the false assumption that "F&H" is leading the naïve, dumb Kalitta pilots around by the nose simply because we do not wish to negotiate YOUR contract by proxy? That's simply insulting on every level. You , in all your arguments against our pilot group, have failed every single time to address why we should not have the freedom and ability to decide our own destiny !! Your sole , one and only , problem is obviously that our doing so would not directly benefit you.
As to wether Wells directly insulted our Chairman and our negotiators, YES HE DID. "Scumbags" was the word he used. Ask him. See if he admits it.
Wells can not be considered objective and should recuse himself from any dealings with the Kalitta Pilot group.
As to wether Wells directly insulted our Chairman and our negotiators, YES HE DID. "Scumbags" was the word he used. Ask him. See if he admits it.
Wells can not be considered objective and should recuse himself from any dealings with the Kalitta Pilot group.
Second, no where did I say you should not have the freedom and ability to negotiate your own contract.
The point I am trying to make is that now is not the time to give in and accept a contract that does not move the bar forward in all sections for all of the 1224 pilot groups.
When UPS and FedEx and the legacies negotiate contracts they always try to outdo the others previous contract. We should be doing the same. Negotiating conditions for pilots may never be better than right now. The economy is okay and companies are having a hard time attracting qualified pilots. Strike while the iron is hot.
6 years of negotiations is a long time. Just ask the Evergreen pilots that negotiated 10 yrs with a scumbag just like Connie, and never did get a new contract.
I do understand K4 pilots desire to just get the contract done.
08-18-2016, 07:14 AM
#1940
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,411
Originally Posted by CargoPirate
First, if Wells did use the term scumbags then he loses my respect.
Second, no where did I say you should not have the freedom and ability to negotiate your own contract.
The point I am trying to make is that now is not the time to give in and accept a contract that does not move the bar forward in all sections for all of the 1224 pilot groups.
When UPS and FedEx and the legacies negotiate contracts they always try to outdo the others previous contract. We should be doing the same. Negotiating conditions for pilots may never be better than right now. The economy is okay and companies are having a hard time attracting qualified pilots. Strike while the iron is hot.
6 years of negotiations is a long time. Just ask the Evergreen pilots that negotiated 10 yrs with a scumbag just like Connie, and never did get a new contract.
I do understand K4 pilots desire to just get the contract done.
Second, no where did I say you should not have the freedom and ability to negotiate your own contract.
The point I am trying to make is that now is not the time to give in and accept a contract that does not move the bar forward in all sections for all of the 1224 pilot groups.
When UPS and FedEx and the legacies negotiate contracts they always try to outdo the others previous contract. We should be doing the same. Negotiating conditions for pilots may never be better than right now. The economy is okay and companies are having a hard time attracting qualified pilots. Strike while the iron is hot.
6 years of negotiations is a long time. Just ask the Evergreen pilots that negotiated 10 yrs with a scumbag just like Connie, and never did get a new contract.
I do understand K4 pilots desire to just get the contract done.
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