Hotmamapilot replies:
Ten happy pilots for every one "sky high"!? You lost all credibility with that comment. Are you actually in this business or are you enrolled at ERAU?
Btw, I don't think woe is me is needed the hyphen?

Hotmamapilot,
You and I obviously associate with a very different crowd of pilots. That's funny about ERAU though! Yes, I'm in the business and I've been in the business for over 23 years; including a furlough. I guess I just have a very limited circle of pilot friends that are generally happy with their choices and careers compared to you. If you hang out with a bunch of SkyHigh's I suggest that for your own mental health that you find some new friends. I find that hanging around happy, enthusiastic, succesful aviation professionals tends to open more doors and opportunities than sitting around whining about how bad things are like SkyHigh likes to do. Sky has 6,000+ posts all with the same depressing storyline. Maybe if he had invested some of that time in improving his resume and networking he'd be singing a different tune now. Best of luck with your choices.

Cheers,
Thunder1

 

What could go wrong is I might end up having to fly with a guy like you. What kind of reply is this? I really have no idea why I'm being attacked by you here. What in my post gave you the impression that I think I am "better" than anybody? I was trying to be positive and encouraging. I was simply stating my belief that we should go after what we want in life, and if you fail trying don't worry, you still will have a lot more to be proud of then those that gave up at the starting line and that goes doubly for those who died serving our country.

Everything I said can relate to anything you want in life, not just a flying career. You come on here like the grim reaper and your insolent negativity is not appreciated; I doubt many would want to share a cockpit with you anyway.

Also, I didn't say that one's level of success is a definitive result of how hard they try, I know we can't control everything, I said it is related. How is that not a realistic statement? Then you add that Sully "personally was about to lose on a big business investment." So what? He was an airline pilot not a financial planner, how are his personal investment/business choices at all relevant to the overall happiness one can expect in an aviation career?

I haven't read his book but the trend you summarize for us seems typical in life no matter what your aim is. A kid on a little league team dreams about making it to the majors, then the MLB player dreams about making it to the playoffs, then the world series, then winning the world series, then winning it again, and again. Reaching the "top" in anything is a never ending saga and you better expect to get knocked down a few times on your way up. Some blows you may never fully recover from but at least you will end up better off than if you had never tried. It's always tough to be completely satisfied.

My buddy's father retired as a 747 captain for UAL in '99; has a paid off house, a lakeside cabin in Oregon, had what many here might describe as the perfect career but all I ever hear him talk about are two things: how he got screwed out of 500 seniority numbers by some a$*hole personnel manager back in the 60's, and how he got stuck sitting sideways for 12 years. Some will always focus exclusively on the negatives no matter how much good they may have surrounding them.

 

I would think the UAL guy would have a little issue with his retirement check falling from $9500 month to a government "guarantee" of $2500. I'm not sure that would be my idea of perfect.

The other issues.... ya, pilots seem to complain about anything, but that's because there's really not much else to talk about on a 4 day trip

The bad news; if you think I would be bad to fly with, ABSOLUTELY don't get in this business. There's going to be a lot of guys who "sat 12 years sideways"!

 

No pilot who has gone thru a merger hasn't complained FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE about lost seniority. UAL-Capitol merger was a common complaint from the airline captains of my youth. I now guys who did a decade or more of "sitting' sideways", something nobody does today. Now, they just sit in regionals or on furlough. Speaking of complaining, don't get an old engineer started over the FEIA strike of '62 when ALPA broke their union. Even the FEs who became captains complained about it.

GF

 

I think that an important aspect is that things have changed a lot in aviation from even ten years ago. Some here have been sitting legacy airline pilots for over 20 years have lost touch with what it takes to climb the ladder today.

They can only offer advice about how things were in the late 1980's and of what it is like to be a senior legacy pilot today. What I am talking about is what it takes to get started in the current environment and of where it is headed. In 2000 UAL was the king of the world. Now a new FO in their first five years barely bests a postman. Add to that a decade of miserable low wage flying jobs and costly education it takes to get there and it seems more like a Greek tragedy.

The game has changed. Stalwarts of the industry are crumbling, merging or going away. Pay is on a downward slide into oblivion. (Even jobs overseas are beginning to pull back on their wages.) Airliners are so automated now that colleges are sending zero time graduates straight into regional ground school. No interview, no checkride just a place on the training list because regionals don't have to care about skill or experience anymore.

I am sure that in 10 years there will still be airliners to fly but what will the job be like? Who will want to do it anymore? Where is the financial benefit from a lifetime of sacrifice? Many senior legacy pilots here have been insulated from the carnage thus far and like to mention frequently that they are OK but what about the rest of us? I am sure that if someone is a legacy captain they spend their time associating with other legacy airline captains. Where is the problem, right? I am sure that all their friends are doing fine however what about the guy in the right seat or who is struggling at a stagnant regional?

In the future people will still make it to the left seat in a 747 but the pay will be closer to that of a 5 year plumber and they will be gone all the time. It is my position that most here have other aspects of their lives that they would like to preserve and eventually will let their aviation dreams go over a life of depravity and hardship without much reward.

Every year there are around 8500 to 10,000 new commercial pilots made in America and for the last ten years only a handful have been hired at the legacy airlines. The rest are left to twist in the wind until they give up or settle. There is no pilot shortage. 85,000 Skyhighs in just the last ten years. The statistics suggest that most pilots quit or never really get started. Now is that a sign of mass quitter-ism or demonstrated intelligence?

Skyhigh

 

Sky, there is still a need to have educated, highly skilled pilots in an automation age. Failure to do so will result in another AF447 or Colgan 3407. A major airline will hire the best it can and pay them appropriately based on two reasons: 1) safety, and 2) fear of lawsuits following a crash.

In the last round of hiring at Delta, they hired 148 pilots "off the street" out of 5,500 applicants. Simply because there are 1,000,000,000 commercial pilots in the US does not mean they will get a job with a major airline. They will need more education and experience.

This AF447 scenario has happened at least twice to former NWA pilots on the A330, and they came out safely because of their experience and judgement.

Air France Crash Criminal Probe Shows Scope of Crew Errors - Bloomberg

Air France Crash Report Points to Pilot Errors as Skills Undergo a Review - Bloomberg

"The recommendations are likely to rekindle debate about adequate pilot training in an era of aviation dominated by computers. Modern jets are highly automated, and computers ensure the aircraft remains in its so-called flight envelope. The plane departed from normal cruise conditions, and the crew seem to have reacted inappropriately because they misidentified the situation,” said Paul Hayes, director of safety at London-based aviation consulting firm Ascend Worldwide Ltd. “It appears they thought the stall warning was false and reacted to what they thought was an over-speed situation.”

 

"148 pilots "off the street" out of 5,500 applicants."

148/5,500 == depressing

I find it hard to believe that there were only 148 applicants with the required education and experience Elvis. I believe it's safe to assume that the odds of having a timely and rewarding major airline career (if that's what you want) are not good.

I hope things change. We'll see.

 

USMCFLYR,

I hate to be a nit picker but my question was aimed at airline pilots. A career in the military and government flying is a different situation.

Skyhigh

 

Dear Elvis,

I think it is safe to assume that we all agree that the airlines should hire only experienced pilots, but that is not what is happening. Nor will it come back in the future either. The airlines are just like every other business. They are always looking at ways to cut costs.

The modern age automation has made it so that old fashioned attitude instrument flying skills are a thing of the past. As a result computer age kids fit nicely into modern automated flight decks. They pick up the FMS fast and in a short time can fly the entire profile pushing buttons, turning knobs and selecting waypoints.

At my regional management made the conscious choice away from experienced pilots in 1999. They chose guys with 290 hours and a fresh college degree over night cargo pilots with thousands of hours in the saddle. The reality is that low time pilots complain less and will take more abuse for far less money. In addition they will spend many more years in a dead end situation than a guy who comes to the company with a 1000 hours of turbine PIC.

Europe has lived with zero time new hires in their legacy airlines for decades now. It is not going to go away.

Skyhigh

 

GoPats,

Welcome to the new normal. At any one time there are more than 20,000 sitting captains in the US with more than 1000 turbine PIC. Most of whom are waiting their chance at the big time. The legacy airlines however are in retreat. They are combining, shrinking and hiring out much of their flying. When hiring does resume at the few legacies that are left it will only be a few hundred at a time from the many thousands who are waiting.

We all only have a brief window of time when we are even slightly appealing to a legacy. Most will slowly come to the realization that their time has past and they are stuck in an under performing dead end and approaching middle age. Not much chance for a do over and not a good position to be in either.

Skyhigh