All this talk about SkyHigh insulting you all is incredibly overblown. Suggesting that someone cannot make ends meet responsibly for a family, being irresponsible, missing many things, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. is not insulting you but rather asserting his view on the industry. If you're all going to take negative assertions on the aviation profession as an insults then you have problems with more people than just SkyHigh; even HSLD mentioned in another thread in the last week or so that he could not recommend aviation.

Re: unemployment insurance, I'm just curious then, if you don't believe the employee has any role in paying into it, do you view those funds as a handout to those who are laid off?

USMCFLYR and HercDriver, even though I disagree with you two, I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your opinion and perspective.

So when Sky told me that I put my career before my family and it being reckless behavior, that wasn't a personal insult? Even though I only work a couple days a week and am home all the time and he doesn't know me, but somehow feels he can tell me how my life is. Did you happen to miss that or do you just like to pick and choose what you read and then post about it as being fact?

:D
OH! I see the problem now.
You are new and haven't read enough of the posts to see what we are talking about when we mention insulting and belittling.

You mention Herc and myself specifically so I will only address that aspect and you can continue to read other viewpoints to broaden your horizon.

Herc summed it up extremely well in his last post when he said:
Much of the disagreement comes from the over-exaggeration and yes - insulting way - in which Sky presents his message. Sky takes a point and either mis-respresents it (as he did with the FACTS of this last bit on falsehood) or greatly exaggerates as he did with asserting that $70,000+ was below poverty wage in his state. Someone can dig that thread up again and post it if they wish to make sure that my memory serves with the numbers) Nether things are correct in any fashion but Sky likes to present them as such to bolster his argument. Our point is that the situation is dreadful enough without having to lie about it and that this type of presentation actually diminishes the message which does need to get there.

As for the insults - - -well you'll just need to read more. Red brings to the table a perfect example of what we are talking about:
Here is a test that I've already offered a few and none have taken it yet for obvious reasons. Changed from the original on page #43 to better fit the context of this post:
Well...you might have to imagine this because I just saw, while looking for that quote to copy and paste that you are a university student, so in that case people like you probably have not experienced ANYTHING to actually bring to this conversation, have probably never held a real flying job, nor have a spouse or kids in which you can try out the above statement on to see if it fits.

Now.....after reading the above statement you are probably fuming a little that I would make such assumptions about you and your life and where you are going; though I made them for a reason and do not agree with anything I said ;) Those type of assumptions and insinuated insults, though NOT DIRECTED SOLELY AT YOU, are still insulting and belittling remarks - perfect Sky fodder. I know nothing about you other that you are a university student who believes that Sky speaks to you and you have made 13 posts (and I haven't even looked at your profile yet); but off of that I have insinuated that you shouldn't have a voice in the thread and that you shouldn't even being participating in this conversation because you haven't held a real flying job or have a family - none of which I know for sure (but that doesn't matter).

So to close out......go ahead and copy and paste that quote I put out there and insert your username. Then print it out and be sure to give it to all of your closest friends and family members. Let them know exactly where they stand when you decide to pursue (or continue) an aviation career. Since this is copied out of one of Sky's recent posts - I want to know that you agree with his assertion of your life's priorities - - which if you are pursuing an aviation career why you would be if you agree with what Sky says about it :confused:

USMCFLYR

Edit:
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ha...sociopath.html
Here is a post when he starts a whole thread out by basically calling Attorneys, Police Officers, persons in the military, and yes - pilots - - - - - Sociopaths.
He ends it with saying they show no emotion, no sense of loss, no remorse.
I have to wonder if he has ever attended a memorial/funeral for a fellow military member, a police officer, or an aviator friend or family member, and if so, how he would have the utter gall to say that there was a lack of each above.
northwestc10 - if this is the type of sentiment that you agree with and support then it is your choice,
but I find it very hard to believe that most people could actually look at that starter post and standup to be counted among those who believe this drivel.

I am not a fuming type of person. I see nothing wrong with deducing from past posts that I am a college student not interested in pursuing a career with the airlines. In general too, I wouldn't get too riled up by strangers over the internet. SkyHigh is an anonymous online personality who aggravates you guys, but in the end it's just online and nothing to get worked up about.

I have lurked this site for years and probably read thousands of SkyHigh's comments. As I have maintained, he is not insulting you personally. Also you have never flown for the airlines, correct? Military to FAA? Please correct me if that's wrong, but if that's your background then he's not even targeting you at all. Your training was financially paid for (although you definitely paid with your service - thank you for that) and you went on to work with a very solid government agency. By any means a very responsible and rewarding career choice.

Stagnating at a regional, being out of work, or being forced overseas are all damaging possibilities for someone with a family, both personally and financially. That is what Sky is getting at. After National tanked in 2002, would it have been responsible to drag his wife and his (I know it's six now) kids around to a crappy regional or the ill-fated Gemini or an overseas carrier? Probably not. That is the point he is getting at. I grew up in HNL and it was something to see Aloha tank suddenly. Very sad - Aloha was an awesome part of the islands - and while Hawaiian has helped by picking up a handful of them, many of them are still pretty crippled by that turn of events. Ditto for many other situations. Sky also makes the point that the payoff is fairly questionable. So for him to say that someone's career choice is irresponsible is not an insult, but is rather just an overview of your career choice. Aviation is a risk, although definitely not the only career with its dangers. If you wanted to play the lottery for a career, would others approve?

Being a college student outside of the aviation world I am sure you will brush off my support for SkyHigh, and that's fine - although you're not at the airlines either you are an extremely accomplished pilot and are involved in the industry and it's certainly your prerogative to do so. I respect that. But you all are getting worked up over his negative experiences with the career and taking it too personally. If you can succeed at this career that's awesome. Some will, but as Sky maintains many won't. It takes a lot of resources to do it the civilian way now, and promises a very uncertain and probably turbulent future.

I respect and look up to you all a lot; I wouldn't post here if I didn't. His posts though are not full of sh!t and offer a lot, especially I imagine for younger people. It's one thing to be an MD11 CA at FedEx and say that SkyHigh is to blame and has sh!t up his ass or what not, but he depicts a very real situation that could happen to lots of people. Although you and I don't agree USMCFLYR I still enjoy the dialogue and wish you well.

If after pointing out all the facts as I did using real examples from previous posts you still believe that those things are said then we are at a dead end in that part of the discussion. You and I have different social and moral compasses obviously.

No - he isn't - he instead insults HUGE groups of people. He plays right at the edge of the TOS. Others who go a more direct route have their posts deleted and have a hard time understanding the difference.

How can you read the last part of my previous post and say that he isn't targeting me? He targets ALL pilots. He has targeted me specifically when he insults those who have spent considerable time away from family and friends. He insults me as a new profession pilot when he says when he says that spending time on the road now is putting family and friends at the bottom of my priority list.

Please stop with this line of reasoning. I worked for my training. I was being paid for being a military officer. It was my job. Nothing is given to anyone who becomes a military pilot.

Yes - we all know the hardships that Sky endured throughout his career. That point we all agree upon (I thought you said you were well read on this subject). MANY people have come on APC through the years and given similar advice and shared stories of success and failure and have done so without his *style*. I showed you concrete example of such northwestdc10. If you chose to ignore this fact and continue with the basis of your argument being what you type above then continue with your well practiced selective reading skills.

See the above. Plenty of people are able to say this exact thing without calling into question someone's worth as a parent. Since you mentioned HSLD in the last post - ask him the same question. Ask him if he views himself as an irresponsible parent given his career choice.

I ask you to look at the delivery of the message. If I were "brushing off [your] support" then I wouldn't be taking time to respond to your posts. Whether I am in the airline industry (I'm not) or just a new professional pilot (I am) matters nothing in the entire discussions that we are having.

I take his delivery personally because he has insulted my past and present profession. All I can deduce from your "support" is that you agree with his assertions of the worthlessness of pilots and feel comfortable in making the same broad-based assumptions about the lives of those who he attacks.

USMCFLYR

Btw - will you be taking me up on my example?
Can you put your *support* into words that you can share or does that support only come to light on the internet?

"I take his delivery personally because he has insulted my past and present profession. All I can deduce from your "support" is that you agree with his assertions of the worthlessness of pilots and feel comfortable in making the same broad-based assumptions about the lives of those who he attacks.

USMCFLYR

Btw - will you be taking me up on my example?
Can you put your *support* into words that you can share or does that support only come to light on the internet?"

Actually, I have extreme admiration for pilots. I just wish the field was better so that those in it could overall make a more stable and lucrative career out of it. Pilots of any background make significant sacrifices to be in the field and should be rewarded for it. I would love to see SkyHigh at Alaska or United.

For now, no, I will not be taking you up on your example. I am on a responsible path for the moment and have nothing to be ashamed of. If my plan implodes and I'm left screwed or what not, I will be the first to admit I messed up with regards to my future and what I can support. It's certainly possible though and I do keep it in mind. Not sure what you're expecting out of that last question. Let me know if you're unsatisfied with that answer.

northwestdc10,

Since you ignored this I will try again.

Then how you can deny to portray yourself in the same light as Sky yet defend his very words and say that we are wrong for pointing it out doesn't make a lot of sense.

To make it simple:
1) Sky is right/misunderstood.
2) No I don't see myself in that way.
3) You guys are wrong for pointing it out.

You say you are on a responsible path and have nothing to be ashamed of. :confused:
Are you planning on becoming a professional pilot?
If so - then I don't understand how you could possibly make that statement if your are a supporter of Sky's views - because he would tell you just how wrong and irresponsible you are in pursuing such a path.

If you were to go into business, borrow large sums of money to get it started, fail miserably and end up in crushing debt - would you consider yourself a failure too?
That route may lie in your future no matter what route you take. It isn't just in aviation. You may succeed in aviation, you may succeed in business, you may become a billionaire real estate developer, you may fail in all or more....you just don't know. Put your best effort into whatever you decide to do and deal with life as you play the game. It is NOT fair.

Red - if you haven't yet - see his response to me in the last two posts. He can not answer you because he can't answer the question himself. He can't even put him/herself into your situation in the example; yet claims to believe in the words. Kind of reminds me of the 'don't ever ask anyone to do something that you are unwilling to do yourself' rule of life.

USMCFLYR

USMCFLYER

Momma taught me never to argue with an idiot--they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

GF

You are still taking a gigantic risk and it could fall at any moment. You could be the next guy unemployed, so SkyHigh definitely has a point. The unemployed can also spend all their time at home.