SkyHigh

I can not account for anothers self delusion. I can lead a horse to water but can not comprehend it for them.

I am glad that you held the magic wand. It is also possible that you were farther down the trail than my generation of pilots and experienced a much different career progression as a result. In the mid-2000's regionals were giving away FO jobs to kids with brand new tickets. Succeeding generations of pilots will not have it so good.

Being a pilot in modern times is often more about what one will do over what they can do. I am not willing to leave my future exclusively into the hands of a seniority list and corporate executives. I will not intentionally put myself into a situation where I feel my time is not being well invested. I chose not to abandon my pregnant with with two other small children at home to care for so that I could chase poor aviation prospects.

Luck, sacrifice, and how much of your personal life you are willing to sell off cheap plays a major role in ones career outcome as a pilot. Increasingly being a pilot is a poor negotiating position to be in with life. I don't know your full story. Whatever it is I bet it is interesting.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh

A lot of people got hired at the majors during that time while thousands of my peers were stuck at regionals only to see the door slam shut when our time came after 9-11 and largely remain that way until just recently.

You were farther down the trail than me and able to make the jump to a legacy before the show boat stopped. Though we were in the industry during the same times we experienced different career progressions. In the mid-2000's regionals were giving away FO jobs to kids with brand new tickets. Succeeding generations of pilots will not have it so good.

Timing plays a major role. It was much better to be an airline pilot in the 1960's than it is today. Pilots of tomorrow will face a much more difficult time than you did.

Skyhigh

SkyHigh

True, people on the ground can cause trouble however it is another layer of control that can be superseded. In any case as control is removed from the pilots safety improves. The advance of automation is making it obvious that the biggest threat to aviation is the pilots. I do not see how the future holds anything other than a fully automated ground controlled flight deck with a back up system that comprises of an organic manual reversion human system. Only in a severe emergency would the pilots manually fly the plane. During cruse the pilots can put on an apron and help serve drinks.

Sure, experience is relative however what I was referring to was that you can not use your past experience to justify a similar future. Pilots in the 1960's had a great time but it is not a relative measure against what pilots experience today.


Skyhigh

JohnBurke

You preach doom and gloom, share your expertise of the industry, and yet haven't a leg upon which to stand. You abandoned your failed career, and are the least qualified of all to speak on the subject of a successful career in aviation. You're the outsider looking in, with nothing more to offer than "I quit."

Your response to those who didn't quit, who don't see things as you, is to accuse of delusion. How pathetically ironic.

If we succeed in this industry then, we're delusional?

My "magic wand" was the magic of hard work. I didn't wait for my future to come to me. I went out and met it. I didn't simply grab the first job and cling on without any forethought or effort or research, and I didn't stay in one place. I didn't grab the regional job and wait for the world to deliver it's oyster to my doorstep. Perhaps you did and you feel the world failed you.

You need to understand this: the world didn't fail you. You failed.

There's a big difference, you see. Don't blame the industry for your own failings.

That sentence makes no sense. Have you thought that one through?

Neither did I. I chose to chase excellent aviation prospects. If you were so narrow-minded as to think that the only world which existed was the airline venue, especially the regionals, then it's no wonder you failed.

You're talked elsewhere in this forum, often at great length, about your other experience; aerial fire, for example. We've picked that apart, and shown that your comments show either gross misunderstanding, complete lack of experience, outright invention of these experiences, and often simply lies. In the case of the firefighting, I've got a long career doing just that, and could see your comments for what they were (as did others who had the background to know just how full of it you were). You really didn't attempt to build your career other than a sense of entitlement to the airlines. When you got frustrated with waiting for your career to come to you, then you departed, crying into the night. Now you say it's not worth it, not possible.

I didn't abandon my family, either. Aviation makes possible what they have. My son, who just joined the Marine Corps, intends to make aviation is profession. He's not going to lay back and wait for his career to unfold around him; he's intent on earning every step of it, and so he shall.

If one embarks on one path in aviation and it's not leading where one wishes to go, then get on a different path. It's not that complicated. Or one can elect to simply jump ship, as you did. Others entertaining the notion of a career should not be swayed by the words of a man who couldn't and wouldn't stick it out, however, as anything other than untrustworthy and unreliable. You lack credibility not only for your own failings, but for your quitting. You gave up, and therefore wouldn't know what's possible in the business.

What do you do now? Talk about the success of that, but don't attempt to dictate what can be done with a career in aviation, because you are uniquely unqualified.

No, you don't know my full story, and you won't. Perhaps because it hasn't been a failure, I have no need to spread it on the table and announce to the masses, "Look everyone. Look at my tragedy. Isn't it tragic? Isn't it sad? Cry for me, will you? Cry for me, now that I'm gone."

Yes, it is interesting, and I suppose that when it ceases to be then I'll also go find something else to do. It's only become more interesting, and with it more lucrative. My personal life is enhanced, nothing "sold off" or sacrificed cheap. There's no doubt that sacrifices have been made along the way, but you don't seem to understand that the concept of sacrifice isn't martyrdom, but giving up something good to get something better. Today is better than yesterday, and I have every reason to expect tomorrow will be better than today.

No, I won't pause to cry for you. You've made your choices and go out of your way to attempt to inflict misery on the others who have been left behind. Like an ineffective poltergeist, you seem bend on causing sorrow to others as they make their way down the path. It would be unfortunate if some actually believed what you have to say, or gave you any credence at all, for it's far more than you deserve.

hindsight2020

I dunno, spending 8-10 years in the right seat of a regional at the financial expense of one's family and financial solvency, sounds like a religious argument to me. The idea one should be independently wealthy/parental/spousal/retirement subsidized in order to pursue a regional job is also rather dishonest. I keep hearing that there's more than one path to the right seat of a major airline (as a military guy, I generally agree with that notion), but in practicality I think that's rather intellectually dishonest advice for the majority of applicants.

So to what degree are we talking past each other, is the relevant question. The formative process to qualify for a lucrative mainline job isn't expected to be easy, but it shouldn't be martyrdom either. Otherwise, rational players pursue other vocations (medical, financial et al). By perusing the regional sub-forum on here, it appears there is a consensus over there by those who haven't yet quit, that the regional compensation structure is not financial sacrifice, but financial martyrdom. So, who's telling the truth. I'm inclined to believe those for whom that job is their actual livelihood. To me, the position of someone who doesn't depend on their job's income in order to live, is not a particularly credible or useful position to draw vocational advice from.

Ultimately this is just a job, not a religion. The idea one must subject oneself to financial martyrdom in order to be deemed genuine in the pursuit of this job is laughable fanaticism from those with a chip on their shoulder about their own bouts with the "pay your dues" religion.

brianb

Sky is at the bottom of a deep well hoping someone will join him in the eternal diatribe against pilot's who have become a success in the industry. He is well spoken and seems like a smart dude but I believe he is unreachable.

Cubdriver

Sky has a message though, which is along the lines that "many are called but few are chosen". The facts back this viewpoint up as well as metric ton of anecdotal evidence available on these forum boards every day. Dreams of career glory die hard at regionals but we seldom hear about it because the losers shrink away in self-effacing shame. We tend to only hear about it from a few outliers such as SkyHigh, who don't seem to mind the continual tomato pelting while they carry on. Big-time aviation is also big life gamble, and while I do not like some of the rhetoric and hyperbole he uses, SH is one of the most enduring voices for the unfortunate side of this undeniably common experience.

USMCFLYR

Who believes that these boards represent a majority of the profession?

There are plenty of success stories as well, yet many of them don't frequent web boards to toot their own horns as many like to come to the boards to complain - - because we all know that pilots love to complain.

Sky recently tried to tie success to only a certain timeframe. A few others refuted that claim with their own stories detailing success after those years. He then changed his timeframe to suit his trumped up stories, yet there are successes during those times too. Hard times? Of course - but there are hard times across the country in many, if not all, professions. I'm sure there are even rental property owners who have struggled during the wide expanses of time that Sky tries to use to make his points.

The industry is possibly on the verge of some of the biggest movement in recent history.

If you give credence to Sky's stories, view of the industry, and believe that this profession is a waste of one's life and resources - then exercise your freedom of choice and go try something else. He is talking to you.

The industry will survive without you. Will you survive the industry?

JohnBurke

Good point. Those who spend too much time bemoaning what they think they couldn't have accomplished ten or twenty years ago may miss out on the fact that opportunities abound at present.

Someone in another thread noted that that CRJ positions are opening up in China. For someone who wants to jump into the fastest growing aviation market in the world, that's a good direction to look.

One could tie one's self to the regionals and make the assumption that it's the only path to stardom in the business. It's not.

There are many more places to work in aviation than the airlines, and one need not ever work for a regional if one chooses not to do so.

If one feels stuck at the regional level, then it may be a time to get out and go do corporate, or night freight, or something else. If the path ahead is blocked, go around. Those who sit in their position and wallow, and cry about no progress, probably haven't opened their eyes long enough to consider other options.

SkyHigh

There are plenty of opportunities to sell the best years of your life cheap but few that offer access to a middle class life in the USA while still young enough to benefit from it. I think it all boils down to what ones priorities are. If all one really wants in life is to fly a plane then they are in luck. There are plenty of corporations ready to plug you into the machine at the lowest possible minimal life supportive wage. One could also sell off their culture, nation, friends and family relationships to move to a foreign land and squat in a studio apartment over a bowl of rice and possibly earn a little bit more.

I however though that I was investing into a viable profession that could support a family. A financial platform to serve as the foundation to build a full and developing life upon and after a devoted and lengthy career receive benefits to help provide for a decent retirement. As we all know those things are all long gone and all one is left with is "I got to fly a plane". If that is all a person really wants to get out of this life then great.

In my case everything that my family of eight and I have now and will have well into the future must come from the fruits of my labors today. People with places to go in life can not afford to blow years waiting for a company to decide to start another upgrade class. Everyone here needs to get on with a legacy carrier in their 20's of they want to enjoy a similar life to their peers or hopefully they are a trust fund baby and don't have to worry about it.

I want/need more than what an aviation career can commonly provide anymore.

Skyhigh