UA verse AA
11-19-2017, 04:29 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,213
Originally Posted by beech2jet
This surprises me, considering Delta doesn’t have Domestic crew meals or middle seat deadhead pay and American doesn’t have a minimum calendar day pay, meaning there are 3 day trips that pay 10 hours and 4 days that pay less than 20. Seems like you’d have to work quite a few more days to make the same money at AA. Does AA have Domestic crew meals (not that they’re anything to write home about). There must be other aspects of UAs contract that fall far behind the others. ALPA put something out at one point with overall contract values that I thought had DL/UA pretty much tied and AA right behind. But of course, that was total monetary value.
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.
UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).
Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).
11-19-2017, 05:17 PM
#32
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Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 634
Originally Posted by Sliceback
I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.
UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).
Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.
UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).
Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).
UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career.
11-19-2017, 05:28 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 736
Something to consider is total percentage of widebodies. I break widebodies into two categories, large widebody and total widebody. Since AA, DAL and UAL all have 767-300’s and all pay them considerably less then large widebodies, I break them into two separate catagories. 767-300’s and Large Widebody (767-400’s & A330 and bigger).
UAL Mainline Fleet
Narrowbody
570
767-300’s
35
Large Widebody
144
Total Widebody
179
Total Fleet
749
Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
19.2%
Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
23.9%
Pilot size 12,500
American Mainline Fleet
Narrowbody
815
767-300
31
Large Widebody
120
Total Widebody
151
Total Fleet
966
Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
12.4%
Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
15.6%
Pilot size 14,500
So UAL has 2,000 less pilots and more total widebodies and large widebodies. If UAL grows to AA’s size (not saying UAL will) you will benefit from more widebodies and sizable growth. More room for growth on the UAL side that plus more widebodies may yield better return vs slightly higher retirements on AA side.
Anyway something else to consider.
My source for fleet info. From UAL a union MEC fleet plan emailed out to pilots last Spring. For the AA fleet count the numbers listed on this website under airline profiles. The listing under airline profiles for United shows the 747-400’s (now parked) and only showed 4 777-300’s (currently have 14 and 4 more coming next year), also showed 6 less 787’s then UAL will have in early 18.
UAL Mainline Fleet
Narrowbody
570
767-300’s
35
Large Widebody
144
Total Widebody
179
Total Fleet
749
Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
19.2%
Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
23.9%
Pilot size 12,500
American Mainline Fleet
Narrowbody
815
767-300
31
Large Widebody
120
Total Widebody
151
Total Fleet
966
Large Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
12.4%
Total Widebody Percentage of Total Fleet
15.6%
Pilot size 14,500
So UAL has 2,000 less pilots and more total widebodies and large widebodies. If UAL grows to AA’s size (not saying UAL will) you will benefit from more widebodies and sizable growth. More room for growth on the UAL side that plus more widebodies may yield better return vs slightly higher retirements on AA side.
Anyway something else to consider.
My source for fleet info. From UAL a union MEC fleet plan emailed out to pilots last Spring. For the AA fleet count the numbers listed on this website under airline profiles. The listing under airline profiles for United shows the 747-400’s (now parked) and only showed 4 777-300’s (currently have 14 and 4 more coming next year), also showed 6 less 787’s then UAL will have in early 18.
Last edited by Boeing Aviator; 11-19-2017 at 05:38 PM.
11-19-2017, 07:12 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 2,297
Originally Posted by Larry in TN
The problem with AA's policy is it only works for the first commuter to reserve the jumpseat (is it time or seniority?). UAL's policy works no matter how many other pilots are commuting.
but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected.
But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked.
11-19-2017, 11:51 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,193
Originally Posted by PRS Guitars
I’m not saying choose AA...
but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected.
But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked.
but this is wrong. Our commuter policy is not predicated on having the jumpseat reserved. Just adequately available seats 24 hours prior (which to me is 1, and I’m not sure they’d even check). We can even use an off line carrier as our 1 flight (which they won’t be able to check loads easily for). Also, realize the commuter policy just keeps you out of trouble, we aren’t pay protected.
But really, the commuter policy is not what makes commuting at AA better. It’s the ability to book the jumpseat that makes it better. It’s pretty dang close to the equivalent of having a ticket. I don’t even check loads or worry about my commute once I have the seat booked.
11-20-2017, 12:22 AM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 492
Originally Posted by Grumble
UAL, you don't even need seats on the airplane. Flight can be oversold with 100 nonrevs. As long as you had two flights available you're protected. They don't even need to be UAL airplanes.
11-20-2017, 04:08 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,213
Originally Posted by C11DCA
See the following contract comparison re: vacation days and hours
UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career.
UAL matches AMR at year 5 for days, trails again until it matches at year 11, then exceeds AMR for the rest of ones career.
FedEx, SW, UPS, and Alaska have much better vacation sections.
11-20-2017, 04:27 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by Sliceback
I was surprised too. It’s also an opinion but it’s an informed opinion by a union guy who studies contracts.
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.
UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).
Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).
You mention middle seat DHD pay. Most AA agents ‘work’ with DHD’s in my experience. So how often (valueable) is that portion of a contract? The guy reviewing the different contracts might have given it a different value than you did.
UA’s contract takes 12 years to match AA’s second year vacation value. It lags AA’s vacation hours until the 20th year. UA’s vacation exceeds AA’s after 20 years but it takes until the 33rd for UA’s vacation value to exceed AA’s. DL’s contract hours lag AA’s on an annual basis until the 20th year and equal AA’s total vacation value the 52nd(?) year(early 2017 contract comparison).
Maybe it’s all of the details, like the vacation difference, that had the contract SME say he’d choose AA’s contract over UA’s contract (disregarding pay).
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