BeatNavy

I personally don’t see a reason to redefine anything. Merriam Webster’s definition is pretty good and encompasses what most people in this industry consider scabs. I’ll re-paste for good measure.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scab
(1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union
(2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended
(3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike
(4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

USMCFLYR

Based on this definition, and if in fact the pilots that were being discussed here came on board AFTER the strike was ended, which definitions are being used to apply to these offending pilots?
Plus - the first one? Not joining a union makes you a scab?

BeatNavy

The dudes flying struck work down south? Not even a question. 3 and 4 apply. Couldn’t be a more clear definition of a busting a strike.

What it is referring to is not joining a union when one is present. Clearly SKW pilots aren’t scabs. At unionized airlines there are some “non-seniority list” pilots. This could be a gray area, or clearly defined in a CBA and endorsed by the union. At JetBlue we have part 91 pilots, or ferry pilots who take flight hours away from seniority list pilots. Generally these are 65+ year old guys who fly for fun for $500 a day, and JetBlue hires fewer seniority list pilots because of it. In other words, these d bags are taking jobs and flying away from us, for less pay and no benefits. By this definition, they can be considered scabs (and are by some here), but it’s a gray area, and hopefully our CBA takes this cheap labor option away from the company. But, if our CBA allows it, then it is endorsed by the union and therefore could be argued it’s a union sanctioned action/employment, despite not working under a union contract, and therefore they aren’t scabs. Also, we have 100 or so out of our 3,600 pilots who are nonmembers and don’t pay dues. Once a CBA is voted in, they will have to join and pay a lot of back pay and begin paying dues, or pay a contract maintenance fee going forward, or face termination. The union doesn’t like it and obviously wants 100% membership, but so long as they pay the CMF in lieu of dues, they are covered and aren’t considered scabs since they will be working under a union contract and pay a contract mx fee, just as union pilots will.

The dudes flying struck work down south? None of the above applies.

USMCFLYR

OK...so IF what was reported earlier in this thread is true - that the strike ended, numerous pilots were fired (due to their involvement in the strike - and then these pilots were contracted to come in and fly in place of these fired pilots fit in with definition number three since it clearly says "during a strike"?

My federal job still has a union present = PASS.
Many (most maybe) of my co-workers are not members of PASS.
Are they considered to be scabs, or does the definition above only apply to private sector workers/unions?

If ANY strike ends, and there are people terminated for participation (or for any reason), is ANYBODY who takes the job after the END of the strike considered to be a scab, or in the case being discussed - is it only the first X number of people that equate to the X number of people whom were fired after the strike ended?

BeatNavy

I don’t know anything about PASS, but I’m guessing it’s a union that represents many different types of groups within the FAA. Do PASS workers work under different conditions or contracts than you? Do you do the same job for less pay and benefits than they do? Is union membership a required condition of being an employee, yet you and others refuse? Seems like a pretty clear answer...not a scab by any definition. Now if you crossed a picket line during a strike...may be a different story.

The strike, regardless of its legality, caused operational issues at avianca and subsequent terminations. If delta had a strike with debated legality, being decided by the Supreme Court, and in the meantime they fired 3,000 pilots, they can’t just temporarily hire non-union contract pilots to move their metal. That’d be a violation of their CBA. I imagine the same is true at avianca. Avianca could codeshare with another airline to move their pax under CBA allowances, or hire full time employee pilots, under their contract/union. But they can’t hire contract pilots outside of the scope of their CBA due to a self induced pilot shortage. They can have contract pilots for 6 months for training pilots/initial cadre that they had when they got their 787s...the union/contract allowed that. But as replacement for fired striking employees? No. Needs to be full time avianca employees. Not guys in Boeing shirts with Boeing lanyards.

USMCFLYR

Yes - you are correct. There are many different unions under the FAA that represent a variety of different workers within the federal service; obviously NATCA for the controllers is probably the best known. For my little piece of the pie - PASS (Professional Aviation Safety Specialists AFL-CIO) is a representative union.
No - there is no difference in any working conditions/contracts/pay between PASS members and non-members. No - union membership is not a requirement of employment.
I would agree your assessment; but taken solely by the definition it would seem that if there was a union present and you weren't part of it then the definition would deem you a scab.
I guess part of the point here that I see - is that there is still grey area in even the dictionary definition as presented.

Let's not even bring in the legality of the strike into the discussion for the purposes of this discussion; just whether the strike was OVER or still ON-GOING. In your Delta example above - I assume you consider the strike still on-going and no one has determined the strike as ended. I do not know for sure - was this the case in the event down south?

The point you make about code-sharing pax is interesting and one that I have asked somewhere on the forum before when talking about strikes and such. It deals with FLYING STRUCK WORK. So if UPS were to strike - FedEx couldn't fly their cargo - is this true - that would be flying struck work?
So in a pax airline strike - if Delta were to strike and those pax that would have flown on Delta now fly on a different pax airline - are they flying struck work (people?).

This is a serious question as I am not well versed in airline union CBAs and such. In your reply above, it sounds like these example are specifically covered in airline's CBA - is this correct?

That for taking the time to answer these questions/scenarios BeatNavy.

BeatNavy

My thumbs are getting a workout and I didn’t bring my laptop...sorry if it’s an incoherent reply. And I’m not an expert by any means on unions, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My delta example, and for the sake of relating it to avianca, is with the assumption that the strike is over/ruled illegal, with subsequently fired employees, based on the fact that the government ordered them back to work. If delta pilots struck, then the president ordered them back to work, or the strike was otherwise ruled illegal, I don't think the union/pilots have a choice...the RLA/NMB/PEB govern and allow what airline guys can strike in this industry. Anyone who keeps striking on their own will get properly fired. Dunno what government agencies/laws govern it there, and I assume it’s as corrupt and anti-labor as it is here, but for the sake of scab definitions let’s assume that avianca employees were ordered back to work and the strike was deemed illegal or over by the government, and the former pilots were terminated.

That said, regardless of the status of the strike, avianca can’t just bring in contract pilots to fly their planes. Delta couldn’t have non-delta pilots fly their planes if 3000 of them got fired overnight for striking, conducting a sick out, being drunk on duty (insert reason for firing here), etc. They’d have to hire 3,000 new delta pilots, put them through delta training, give them a delta ID badge and seniority list number. Ditto for avianca. If 3,000 contract guys temporarily flew their planes outside of the airline’s CBA, on non-union terms, that is the definition of a scab. Companies could do this all the time to save on labor costs, which is why it doesn’t happen often and why there is such a backlash to this occurrence. The only place i know of this happening at airlines with a contract is UPS, where they hire non-seniority list management pilots. But I assume their CBA allows it. If UPS pilots struck, they can’t just hire a bunch of contract pilots instead to replace them—they would be scabs. If this was a thing, can you imagine how easy it would be for management to whipsaw labor? This is why scope exists. It governs how much flying can be done by other contracted/non seniority list workers.

Flying struck work, ie boxes from one company being flown by another, is another story. The assumption in your scenario is that a strike is ongoing and legal. If a union has a legal strike and is released, their work is now struck work. Those boxes won’t move, except by scabs, until the strike is over. If delta pilots are on a strike, and United makes a deal to fly delta flights with their flight numbers and their metal—obviously that would be flying struck work. I don’t think that would happen. When delta pax cancel their flights (or their flights cancel), get their money back or get rebooked on United, the revenue then goes to United and they aren’t “struck work.” They made other travel provisions. I could be wrong on that, someone can shoot that down if that’s incorrect.

USMCFLYR

Thanks - PM sent.

TCASTESTOK

A great quote from Flying The Line vol 2 on how pilots should look at scabbing.

Spin

And what happened to United scabs after the 1985 strike?