Notices
Major Legacy, National, and LCC

Retirement age 67

Old 05-18-2022 | 07:24 AM
  #211  
Line Holder
 
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 68
Default

Originally Posted by maxjet

An age increase would allow the majors to stop hiring pilots away from the regionals at such a fast clip, allowing the regionals to catch up to the training gap. This would be a great thing for the industry and the consumer. Obviously a bad thing for the current pilots waiting to move forward.
No.

The best thing for the industry would be for the regionals to be eliminated.

Your points are management speaking points intended to keep wages down for doing the same job as mainline pilots.
Old 05-18-2022 | 07:29 AM
  #212  
Line Holder
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 307
Likes: 37
From: A330 FO
Default

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan
Absolutely. I’m already hearing, “but you’ll have an extra two years at the top of the pay scale” from the Captains. Sure… IF I don’t medical out by then. IF I don’t mind losing out on the time value of money between now and then. But heck… I’d like to be gone by 65, if not before, to enjoy my retirement before I’m too old to get around and do things!
Who wants to step out of the cockpit and into the casket?!

My career has been impacted by:
- Pay for training
- The introduction of regional jets (fewer mainline jobs)
- 9/11 and a half decade furlough
- Age 65 extending that furlough
- The 2008 recession
- The Max grounding
- The global pandemic
- and now age 68?!

Gimme a break. I know they say that timing is everything, but I was 25 when I was hired by my first major. How much better could my timing have been?! I would like to upgrade at my last major sometime before retirement…
Sounds exactly like my flying career. Good news though, congress is enacting legislation to let 18 year olds drive those big 18 wheelers down the interstate to solve the trucker shortage.

This way when you finally fly your last leg at 68 you can be squashed by some 18 year old TikToking while they are driving a semi as you drive home to your retirement party.

A fitting end to a illustrious flying career!
Old 05-18-2022 | 07:32 AM
  #213  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by maxjet;[url=tel:3424971
3424971]I understand the angst against moving up the retirement age. I hope it gets raised for one simple reason. I would like to get on an airliner, after paying a high price to do so, and ACTUALLY BE ON TIME! I am so sick of hearing about No crew! Yes, I know this is the airlines fault. Yes I know they saw this coming. Neither of those things solves my problem as a consumer. Raising the age, even if only temporary, and for domestic only, gives them 2 years to catch up.

The word is out that being a commercial pilot pays well. Flight schools are filling up. The pipelines will be full in a couple of years. An age increase would allow the majors to stop hiring pilots away from the regionals at such a fast clip, allowing the regionals to catch up to the training gap. This would be a great thing for the industry and the consumer. Obviously a bad thing for the current pilots waiting to move forward.
when they say “no crew” it doesn’t mean crew wasnt assigned to a flight and they just discovered it then. Its a blanket statement for why they’re late. It just means at least one person out of the whole crew is not there at that moment. Maybe scheduling robbed them for another flight. Maybe they were caught up in a thunderstorm on the other side of the country. Maybe they got in late the night before and needed extra rest. Maybe it’s just the flight attendants or one flight attendant. Maybe just the pilots or pilot. When they say “no crew” over the PA they rarely say why there is no crew. 67 or 68 wouldn’t help with the “no crew” situation.

Airlines publish a schedule a few months out and that schedule requires X number of pilots to fly. If an airline publishes a schedule but has less than X pilots. Is the problem a lack of pilots or is it a problem with scheduling too much with too little resources to deliver on the schedule?

Last edited by usernamehere; 05-18-2022 at 08:07 AM.
Old 05-18-2022 | 08:22 AM
  #214  
Line Holder
 
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 696
Likes: 30
Default

Originally Posted by usernamehere
when they say “no crew” it doesn’t mean crew wasnt assigned to a flight and they just discovered it then. Its a blanket statement for why they’re late. It just means at least one person out of the whole crew is not there at that moment. Maybe scheduling robbed them for another flight. Maybe they were caught up in a thunderstorm on the other side of the country. Maybe they got in late the night before and needed extra rest. Maybe it’s just the flight attendants or one flight attendant. Maybe just the pilots or pilot. When they say “no crew” over the PA they rarely say why there is no crew. 67 or 68 wouldn’t help with the “no crew” situation.

Airlines publish a schedule a few months out and that schedule requires X number of pilots to fly. If an airline publishes a schedule but has less than X pilots. Is the problem a lack of pilots or is it a problem with scheduling too much with too little resources to deliver on the schedule?
WHOA, WHOA WHOA Mister! (...or, Ma'am, you, they, them etc., etc...)
This is not a place for facts, evidence or cogent thoughts.
Old 05-18-2022 | 09:19 AM
  #215  
Banned
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,831
Likes: 499
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777
Lost gen will not experience single pilot ops in the US. Unless maybe they fly a caravan.
nobody will. If a system is equally safe with a single pilot as with two, there’s no reason to keep a single pilot because the safety is provided by autonomy, not by the pilot.

there’s a concept called metastability in physics and math (among others) that might be used as a metaphor here. Imagine a graph with risk on the y-axis and number of pilots (decreasing left to right) on the x-axis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta...-stability.svg

There’s no condition in which two pilots plus AI will be less safe than one pilot plus AI. So the get from two pilots plus AI to the “promised land” of removing humans from the loop, you have to go directly to zero pilots. Otherwise you end up on the hill.
Old 05-18-2022 | 09:25 AM
  #216  
DeltaboundRedux's Avatar
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 2,945
Likes: 213
From: Enoch Powell Enthusiast
Default

Originally Posted by nene
A bit of irony that your qualified to be US president (or 2/3 of our federal govt for that matter) at age 79 but not fly a multi piloted aircraft....
To be fair, POTUS only has to press one button (and it's a big one); pilots are responsible for many buttons of all shapes and sizes.
Old 05-18-2022 | 09:27 AM
  #217  
rickair7777's Avatar
Prime Minister/Moderator
Veteran: Navy
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,115
Likes: 795
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Default

Originally Posted by OOfff
nobody will. If a system is equally safe with a single pilot as with two, there’s no reason to keep a single pilot because the safety is provided by autonomy, not by the pilot.

there’s a concept called metastability in physics and math (among others) that might be used as a metaphor here. Imagine a graph with risk on the y-axis and number of pilots (decreasing left to right) on the x-axis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta...-stability.svg

There’s no condition in which two pilots plus AI will be less safe than one pilot plus AI. So the get from two pilots plus AI to the “promised land” of removing humans from the loop, you have to go directly to zero pilots. Otherwise you end up on the hill.
I've said as much before. Hypothetical autonomous-capable airplanes will initially be manned by two pilots and that will have to persist for years while enough operational data is gathered (total SWAG, ten years per type). At that point you could go to zero, but politics and public opininion will almost certainly mandate single pilot for a good while after that. Just in case.

Only thing you might see near/mid term is single-pilot cruise on some long-haul ops. IMO they'd need an FA up front just to call for help and open the door in case the on-duty pilot is incap. Doubt the FAA will go for it but other countries might.
Old 05-18-2022 | 11:57 AM
  #218  
Line Holder
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 678
Likes: 8
From: B747 FO
Default

Originally Posted by rickair7777
I've said as much before. Hypothetical autonomous-capable airplanes will initially be manned by two pilots and that will have to persist for years while enough operational data is gathered (total SWAG, ten years per type). At that point you could go to zero, but politics and public opininion will almost certainly mandate single pilot for a good while after that. Just in case.

Only thing you might see near/mid term is single-pilot cruise on some long-haul ops. IMO they'd need an FA up front just to call for help and open the door in case the on-duty pilot is incap. Doubt the FAA will go for it but other countries might.
I honestly don't think we will ever see single pilot. Perhaps, NO pilot at all. But never a single pilot. Specially as things are developing with the latest Air China crash. Or how many crashes that have been blamed on a single pilot locking out the other pilot.
Old 05-18-2022 | 12:08 PM
  #219  
rickair7777's Avatar
Prime Minister/Moderator
Veteran: Navy
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,115
Likes: 795
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
Default

Originally Posted by JohnnyBekkestad
I honestly don't think we will ever see single pilot. Perhaps, NO pilot at all. But never a single pilot. Specially as things are developing with the latest Air China crash. Or how many crashes that have been blamed on a single pilot locking out the other pilot.
That's a legit point. If a single pilot was there as a safety pilot for autonomy, he would need the ability to over-ride the autonomy unilaterally. Same with a ground-based safety pilot.

Maybe they come up with some scheme where the pilot cannot over-ride the automation unless an independent monitor system detects that the automation has allowed the aircraft to depart desired operating parameters (ex too low on GS). Or just keep two pilots until they've worked out all the bugs and have years of experience with full autonomy.
Old 05-18-2022 | 04:24 PM
  #220  
Banned
 
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by ZapBrannigan
Absolutely. I’m already hearing, “but you’ll have an extra two years at the top of the pay scale” from the Captains. Sure… IF I don’t medical out by then. IF I don’t mind losing out on the time value of money between now and then. But heck… I’d like to be gone by 65, if not before, to enjoy my retirement before I’m too old to get around and do things!
Who wants to step out of the cockpit and into the casket?!

My career has been impacted by:
- Pay for training
- The introduction of regional jets (fewer mainline jobs)
- 9/11 and a half decade furlough
- Age 65 extending that furlough
- The 2008 recession
- The Max grounding
- The global pandemic
- and now age 68?!

Gimme a break. I know they say that timing is everything, but I was 25 when I was hired by my first major. How much better could my timing have been?! I would like to upgrade at my last major sometime before retirement…

You got at a major at 25? Well some of us did not get there until 9 years later. So I would vote to extend the age limit to 68 in heart beat. That way you too have too have the option to work longer if you like.
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
SonicFlyer
Major
254
01-28-2022 04:58 PM
fireman0174
Major
79
01-07-2007 08:46 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices