Too late:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...ement-age.html

Okay, thats's fine, I admit I was wrong, but what you missed in your quest to always be the smartest guy in the room is that THE FAA FOLLOWED ICAO that time. That's not happening this time. Yuge difference.

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Right up until they flip flop. When ALPA sees the winds of politics going against them, they will change their position and support it like they always do. Capital A ALPA is nothing but a political lobbying organization. The "union" is the MEC/LEC.

So all the pilots that are almost 65……do you not understand that there are plenty of flying jobs out there after your 121 life. Or are you all admitting that you are harder to train and can’t learn a new aircraft or operate in the 91/135 world?

Also, if you haven’t financially set yourself up to make it to 67 for SS……..you should speak to a financial advisor. It’s not the junior pilot’s responsibility to sacrifice their career movement because of the 6 times divorced, 8 kids, an airplane, a boat, and multiple house (which you can’t afford without that WB CA pay or crediting 150 hours a month of premium NB CA pay).

Or after 65, you should be moved to the bottom of the seniority list as a NB FO to help the new generation of pilots develop.

They quietly went along with and did not publicly oppose the mask mandate when on a daily basis it was causing major problems for the membership.

I was given the reason bc they were banking political good will for something more important. I would say when you take a side in the early innings of even a possible change then it’s being viewed as important to the association and the membership at large. I don’t see them changing sides and the mask BS for two years better have bought us some capital.

RJ FO (keep the last category of pay and continue to accrue longevity)w all RJs brought to the mainline operating certificate with all pilots on the mainline CBA.

Or better become an instructor at an airline owned academy with last category of pay held and continue to accrue longevity

Netjets is claiming 200k first year and if you are one of those genetic freaks that still has the heart and mind if a 25 year old at age 65 you could continue to work well into your 80's. It's a win/win. Just need to get the word out. Plus the flying is way more challenging and can keep your brain sharper. Way better than doing sudoku. Easily an extra 15 years of doing what you love.

Exactly right! You don’t even have to fly one of those things with propellers on them!

Get real. It's obviously a lot easier for them to just keep their current cushy gigs, high compensation, senior schedules, lots of vacay, etc. If somebody actually *wants* to work past 65 it's a no-brainer to keep your airline gig, if possible.

It's not going to be the junior pilots "responsibility". Or their choice. It's also not the senior pilot's choice or responsibility. The Gov is going to make the call for us and we're just along for the ride. Why argue about it?

If the age is increased it's ludicrous to expect an old pilot to end their career early for the express purpose of advancing the careers of younger pilots. Who actually live in an era of absolutely unprecedented career opportunity anyway. I'd save your breath on that. If it passes, the old guys will make a decision that's in THEIR best interest.

Tilting at windmills. The law will not address trivialities such as union seniority lists :rolleyes:

IIRC, last time the law did specify that pilots who had reached 60 PRIOR to the effective date of the law would NOT be entitled to come back to their previous seniority. So there's that. Those that are already retired will stay that way, unless they hypothetically start over at the bottom.

My comment stands. It is my opinion.

Because they are weak and do not actually care about the membership's concerns.

While I agree it would be ridiculous to expect one person to sacrifice for another…that “era of absolutely unprecedented career opportunity” ONLY exists due to mandatory airline retirements.

And it's still going to happen, even if it takes a 2-3 year delay (I'm confident they won't go beyond 68 and even if they did there would be so few takers it would be irrelevant).

A young-ish pilot who gets hired atbig three/FDX today will QUICKLY advance to very high seniority as a NB FO or decent seniority as a NB CA and then have a very lucrative and comfortable existence for many decades to come. You don't need an indefinite run of massive retirements, just enough to get YOU to a good spot where you can happily hang out for the long term. As opposed to languishing at the regionals and/or furloughs for a couple decades.

While the retirements slow down a bit later in the decade, they'll actually still continue at a pretty good clip (by historical standards) well into the 2030's.

Nope. It won’t be a 2-3 year delay and it won’t fix the problem. 60 to 65 screwed me for over 10 years not five because other economic factors happened at the same time. And guess what here we are again. Didn’t fix the problem. Kicked the can down the road. Yet my progression was delayed 10years.

But that was not caused by age 65, as you say, other factors. Age 65 resulted in a career delay of somewhere between 3-4 ish years (not everybody stayed to 65).

There will always be "other factors" to one degree or another.

The 2008 recession was not caused by airline pilots over the age of 60, correlation is not necessarily causation :rolleyes:

The key word there is “today”.

“Today” stops for a massive number of regional, military and bizav pilots if people stop leaving off the top of the list, even if for “only” 2-3 years. And for those junior pilots who squeak onto the list, 2-3 years of relative stagnation.

Mandatory airline retirements are THE singular reason for the industry’s dynamic movement and career progression. They are the rising tide that are lifting all ships across all segments of industry.

There will be other factors again. Those economic factors will happen regardless. Let’s not try to fix what’s happening in the economy with an age extension because when the economy goes south the age extension is going to hurt twice as much.

It's not up to me. Sounds like at least some of the unions are advocating for status quo, so that's good.

If you're in your 20's or 30's, you won't hardly notice it. Would suck for older people who need to move a little further up the ladder but don't want to work after 65 themselves.

You can’t honestly believe that.

Except people do notice. This is a major problem with millennials. Your 20’s is when you want to start making money, saving for and buying a home, starting a family. A delay puts all that on hold which is bad for the country and eventually people don’t wait and take up other lines of work which hurts pilot supply long term. I know many that left the industry in their 20s bc of the effects of age 65 and 2008 together. They never came back bc life happened and starting over wasn’t an option.

Older gens think sure a younger person can recover or wait out a pause but life doesn’t go on pause while your career does. Decisions get made and pilots leave from the bottom and cut their losses

I remember looking up most junior captain at American in 2016. It was a ‘96 hire on the super 80 in LGA. Pretty sure someone hired at age 31 and not upgrading on an MD-80 while commuting to LaGuardia at 50 would notice.

Saying that won’t happen again sounds like Doug Parker saying the airlines won’t lose money again.

There are waves in aviation. Nothing is assured and today’s predictions are meaningless. Not to mention that some of these waves are already on the back end.

But the economic waves are independent of any hypothetical change in retirement age. Changing the age does not cause recessions, wars, etc. Those will happen or not, regardless.

Could you find a rare example who could have just barely upgraded, and somehow never been downgraded over 20 years of turmoil? Sure. But changing or not changing the age will not have that sort of effect on most people. Silver lining, the guy who got stuck as an FO got to enjoy good seniority and stayed married, compared to the guy who upgraded to junior reserve and stayed there for a couple decades.

I'm not even advocating for the change and if it looks imminent I might even grab an upgrade on the next bid for those reasons. But it's only going to have 2 year ish impact on most people.

Age 67/68 is not going to cause pilots to leave the industry in any sort of numbers. It will result in a small but net reduction in pilot demand for a couple years. Not long enough to solve the pilot shortage by any means.

If it correlates with a down economy and furloughs that wouldn’t have otherwise happened if the age didn’t change then yes people will leave.

No. Years of no hiring and no progression are the reason for the rising tide. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

We are nowhere near furloughs. Global pandemic and ground war in Europe involving the red army have not caused an economic collapse.

The presumed looming recession is not likely to be that bad. I wouldn't lose sleep over this just yet.

You may want to save your emotions. We are all just pawns.

ALPA sold us out last time and they will again.

This is a done deal because tier 2 carriers SWA JetBlue Alaska Spirit Frontier would be able to staff. The regionals are collapsing.

United and Delta don’t want to raise the age because they don’t have that problem and would love if tier 2 carriers can’t grow or even staff what the have currently.

Its getting worse by the day.

I guess I'd be the contrarian....the feds have been spending like a drunken sailor on a 401k loan. This inflation is a truly regressive tax that over time will kill the demand in many industries. We are doing everything to make sure oil stays high for quite some time, that's a huge tax that will effect all industries.

There was a pent up demand from the pandemic that we are working through, but unfortunately I sense that much like a party that has gone on a little too long, the hangover will strike and make many have a severe headache.

I truly hope you are right though, but I've been doing this long enough to see how demand/revenues can shrivel in a heartbeat and the airlines are left in a quandary with too much lift and too many employees in the span on one quarter.

CEO's and business media are also anticipating a mild recession.

It is true that there's a cost to all of the covid largess.

Also true that we are intentionally accepting at least some pain to put the stake in Uncle Vlad. I give the administration some pass on that because most Americans want to do it, including me. You can debate until you're blue in then face as to how much of the pain is due to pre-Biden covid assistance, post-Biden covid assistance, Biden policies in general, or RU sanctions. It's probably all of the above, but we shouldn't debate that here.

Remember older guys babysit the younger ones. That's the definition of " babysitting" and I've done plenty of that thank you. All for age 67/68. Not just an ALPA talking point stooge I can actually think with my own brain.

Kids scarcely out of HS flattened a Reich & sank a rising sun. With adequate oversight of course they can be qualified to operate advanced airliners in number quickly enough to address the issue. Lucky them. According to its secretary this week, the DOT backs no change on age policy.

The absurdity of 65.
 

Talk about absurdity. You hit 65 and and are perfectly safe. 65 and 1 day your a total disaster waiting to happen drooling all over the place not sure of where you are. REALLY ? C'mon man get real LOL 😆

For the most part, they don't need babysitting. The percentages requiring additional supervision is pretty constant across all age groups.

In my opinion, this will never happen. Lindsey Graham was "looking at this" whatever that means. Check the news, nothing since and no bills/legislation introduced. News flash, the rest of Congress has to approve. Well, it has to be introduced first, which, has not happened.

back to regular programming. If you are 64.8 years old and flying for the airlines, you can skip the plan to hit age 65, become a sim instructor in the training center, "retain your seniority number", and return to the line once this passes.

Sorry boys. ;)

My opinion

You mean this “Count me Out” guy?

I watched the interview. Buttigeig doesn’t say yes or no. Classic non answer. What he says is at this point he’s seen no evidence of extending the age won’t be a risk.
My sense is that will change and if the govt determines Age 67 will help with the pilot shortage they will change it without a thought
Same for dropping the entry level from
1500hrs- 750hrs.
Last time, it basically happened overnight.
ALPA quickly changed its stance so it could affect the legislatation

Nothing in transportation comes without risk except filthy pants. I understood him to indicate no call for change at this time. Some not yet 60 aren't what they used to be. Could others pass muster +65, absolutely. Checking events and Class 1 renewals are snapshots. Where's a matrix for line performance with respect to assignment rigor over age, haven't seen one. Sat out in a parking lot in front of a med plaza waiting for an eye exam last Wednesday. Parade of the infirm.

Did some of these posts go bye-bye? I'm so cornfused.

My guess is you’re the type who thinks that ‘mentor’ and ‘micromanager’ are synonyms and when your FO points out that you’re below the bravo you tell them that it’s cool to do 250 because ‘it’s what they expect’.

I catch you “studying the overhead panel” after age 65 and you have two options: you retire or I drop a picture of you catching your zzzzzzz’s off in the chief’s office.

Your call, gramps.

Go away boomer. Your greed has wrecked America.