Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 4013899)

There were some extreme rogue attitudes back then, likely leftover from the 'All In" mentality needed for WW-II, and enabled by a relative lack of transparency.

Media, and the likes of Frank Church, put most of that to bed in the decades since. Watergate, Iran-Contra and the Biden coverup all blew up in the faces of the perps.

It's even harder in the era of internet, leaks, and now Alt Media




I can't really nail down a single logical motive. So I tend to think you're right, that multiple factors all played into this. Off the top of my head, in no particular order....

Distraction (ICE? JE?)

Subversive political pressure via Mossad?

Payback for decades of murdering American soldiers who were not involved with Iran?

Golden Opportunity, the A-Hole-Atollahs all in the same room together?

Israeli Ultimatum (they can always use their own nukes, and it's a good argument that a conventional war is better than letting IL get backed into what they consider a corner).

Sincere desire to improve ME stability and global economy? It will objectively be better once the dust settles, going to take IR a long time to rebuild. Maybe he views this as his legacy?

Payback for insultingly refusing to negotiate? Assassination plots?

Trump is objectively a narcissist (along with many other pols). But IMO he does not, after careful and lengthy observation, appear to actually be crazy... he just plays a crazy guy on TV.

But again, it doesn't really matter how we got here...

Originally Posted by N39E002 (Post 4013956)

This is not correct.

The relationship the US has with the Israeli Lobby, the control and power they enjoy, is unique not only in the USA but the world.

The US-Israeli Lobby is nothing like any other lobbying group in existence.

I'm not here to debate whether this benefits the USA and our interests, but to claim the Israeli lobby is "just like any other lobby" is a belief based in denial and lack of awareness.

All evidence points that the Lobby has an immense amount of power and control on not only our foreign policy but in many aspects domestic policy as well.

It is true that not all Jewish people are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jewish, however there is no other example of a foreign lobby in the US that has so much control and power, nor is there another example in the entire world of a foreign lobby having so much control of another country. In that respect, the US-Israeli relationship is totally unique.

It is also true that Zionism was established as an ideological goal well before the Holocaust in Europe.

Originally Posted by N39E002 (Post 4013956)

This is not correct.

The relationship the US has with the Israeli Lobby, the control and power they enjoy, is unique not only in the USA but the world.

The US-Israeli Lobby is nothing like any other lobbying group in existence.

I'm not here to debate whether this benefits the USA and our interests, but to claim the Israeli lobby is "just like any other lobby" is a belief based in denial and lack of awareness.

All evidence points that the Lobby has an immense amount of power and control on not only our foreign policy but in many aspects domestic policy as well.

It is true that not all Jewish people are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jewish, however there is no other example of a foreign lobby in the US that has so much control and power, nor is there another example in the entire world of a foreign lobby having so much control of another country. In that respect, the US-Israeli relationship is totally unique.

It is also true that Zionism was established as an ideological goal well before the Holocaust in Europe.

Originally Posted by CGLimits (Post 4013975)

So you say it doesn’t matter how we got here, and we are not going to discuss how we got here, AFTER you post all your thoughts about how we may have gotten here?? Are you the only one allowed to list those?

Originally Posted by N39E002 (Post 4013956)

This is not correct.

The relationship the US has with the Israeli Lobby, the control and power they enjoy, is unique not only in the USA but the world.

The US-Israeli Lobby is nothing like any other lobbying group in existence.

I'm not here to debate whether this benefits the USA and our interests, but to claim the Israeli lobby is "just like any other lobby" is a belief based in denial and lack of awareness.

All evidence points that the Lobby has an immense amount of power and control on not only our foreign policy but in many aspects domestic policy as well.

It is true that not all Jewish people are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jewish, however there is no other example of a foreign lobby in the US that has so much control and power, nor is there another example in the entire world of a foreign lobby having so much control of another country. In that respect, the US-Israeli relationship is totally unique.

It is also true that Zionism was established as an ideological goal well before the Holocaust in Europe.

Originally Posted by METO Guido (Post 4013979)

Clearly successful punching above their weight. Surprising what can be accomplished if you commit to something. The Asian world dwarfs all others. Bear that in mind.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 4013987)

Maybe motive(s) do matter as to how we get out of this mess. This is kind of like the covid forum, needs careful moderation so as to not go off on the usual partisan dogwhistle tangents.

Originally Posted by N39E002 (Post 4014015)

Do you think getting out of this mess is likely?

I'm thinking we will climb up the escalation ladder and this will significantly hurt our industry, economy and relationships with allies.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 (Post 4013904)

Yes there is a difference.

From experience, I respect the hell out of IL military and intel. I consider them our most valuable ally in the region.

I understand how their world-view came about.

I also don't trust their government agencies or personnel any further than I could throw Gaza with one arm.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 4014034)

I don’t trust Israel - they have their own religious and political agenda. You respect the hell out of their military and intelligence?

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 4014034)

Remind me who hit and killed and wounded dozens on the USS Liberty? Oops.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 4014034)

And how many US warships did Iran take out?

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 4014034)

Their intelligence will say what they need to for their own agenda. Eg, convincing the west that Iran was an imminent threat to the west. Despite our own intelligence saying no, they’re at least 10 yrs away at best, and I’m sure you saw the news of a certain somebody in intelligence stepping down saying pretty much just that.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 4014034)

None of this bodes well for us as Americans and the airline industry.

Originally Posted by ShyGuy (Post 4014034)

And for some of us who actually travel internationally with family, this just paints a big red target on the backs of every American overseas. We are in more danger now as foreigners visiting overseas somewhere.